I watched a few minutes, but it was like Days of our Lives only they're searching for votes, not ratings.
I'll feel the same about next week's event. It's all scripted by professionals, nothing's real. It's all rehearsed & planned to say just the right thing, with just the right twist to rally in as many folks as possible. It's not the candidates words..it's a writer's words.
I wonder if Mr. Miller spent time praying for the right words to say or if they were scripted by a writer. I turned it off believing that it was all a play & they'll run a repeat next week when the Rep. gather.
I will have to wait until this evening to view the prayer offered by Donald Miller. Hats off to him for accepted the invite. Too often we worry about how it might look if we were to be seen with the pagans and tax collectors...
Congrats on resisting the hype and turning off the rhetoric.
Dude, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm so sick of all this partisan bullcrap and the Christians who are going to have a cow that Don Miller *gasp* actually went to the Democratic Convention!
My hat is off to Don for going there when asked and praying from his heart. For what it's worth, that was one of the best prayers I've heard prayed for our country in a long time.
We need more people like Don and Rick Warren to open up the dialogue between both sides and reminding us that when we accepted Christ that doesn't mean our Republican voting card showed up in the mail the next week.
I nearly completely agree with you, Brent. I didn't watch last night, and I won't watch next week either. I'm someone who was once very politically active and involved, and now I can't stomach either side. It's all rhetoric, and I'm finally mature enough to realize that one man cannot save our country. Real positive change will come from the people and God working through the people.
However, here's the problem with saying a prayer at such an event. I hope this doesn't come across as causing division, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. Email me if you don't want to air it in public.
Reading the text of the prayer, it's all good (for me) until this line:
"Give those in this room who have power, along with those who will meet next week, the courage to work together to finally provide health care to those who don’t have any, and a living wage so families can thrive rather than struggle."
How can somebody like me, who believes in their heart of hearts that government putting something like this into practice is nothing short of compulsory socialism/communism, and that said practice is wrong, dead wrong?
Maybe I'm showing my age or something, or my died-in-the-wool conservatism, but how do I get behind something like that? I've been thinking about blogging my thoughts, but I really don't like getting political on my blog, so I've left it alone.
It seems to me that many well-meaning Christ-followers, who see social justice as an integral part of their faith (I agree) want to see government take on what is the responsibility of the Church. In addition, these things like providing for the needs of others, is a call placed upon Christ-followers, but it's like we somehow expect the government to rise up and do what the Church should be doing but has failed to do. How can I expect that out of people who are not Christ-followers?
I don't know, and this is part of my frustration. I see the heart of love behind such actions, but I can't support them in good conscience because of their compulsory nature. I can't get behind that.
Am I way off base in your opinion? Hit me. :)
badguy
· 1 year ago
Something about "giant idiot" and "if Reagan could have been president for life..." is strangely compelling. :-)
JMM - I'll take a shot at you! I think you're angst is well-founded. Let me take one of your statements and just change a word or two...
"It seems to me that many well-meaning Christ-followers, who see pro-life as an integral part of their faith (I agree) want to see government take on what is the responsibility of the Church. In addition, these things like providing for the needs of others, is a call placed upon Christ-followers, but it’s like we somehow expect the government to rise up and do what the Church should be doing but has failed to do. How can I expect that out of people who are not Christ-followers?"
Does this statement still fill you with the same frustration? I think it should.
If anything, the changing political winds are helping many Christ-followers take the hard look at their involvement with politics and their reliance on government for things that are the church's responsibility that they should have been taking all along.
The church - in its earliest form - existed independently of the political power structure. The lack of involvement with the ruling authority of the day is something that should be examined closely; there might be a message in there for us today.
Here's a news flash: The Kingdom of God has little or nothing to do with the success or failure of this country (or any other for that matter). When the United States falls (and we ARE falling) it will not signal the end of the world; thinking that way is so much collective egotism.
I agree with you Brent, if someone calls you to prayer then you should indeed do it.
As a foreigner, I have noticed that there is this perception that God is a Republican who dwells and speaks only in the USA. That's just an observation from someone who has lived here for 11 years.
I like this post. A lot. I stay away from political conversations b/c 1) I don't know all the political "lingo" and 2) because I don't feel there is a lot of freedom to disagree. It's like you say, people want you one way or the other. Not some of both. Frustrating.
@badguy: Oh, yeah that frustrates me just as much. Even more so, in fact.
I totally agree that the success of the Kingdom has nothing to do with the rise and fall of the USA. I love the USA, and hate to see our freedoms chipped away at everyday, but the best thing that might happen to American Christianity is for our freedom to be taken from us. Then we'll see if we are authentic or not.
I regret those days where I was standing in front of an abortion clinic and protesting. I felt like I was standing up for my faith—which I was—but it was faith without grace.
Maybe grace shared through us to those who are pro-choice would do more to change their hearts than our protests. Have we shown them the love of Christ FIRST?
Dave Carrol
· 1 year ago
I know a guy who became ordained and told city officials that he's love to do the craziest weddings available JUST so he could get inside and share Jesus in dark places.
he married mobsters, had crystals as a part of the ceremony... blah blah blah. But in all of the scenario's Jesus was a part of the event.
I completely agree with pretty much everything you had to say, Brent. I have trouble committing myself to a party that I don't completely agree with. I don't know how we got here, but I hate that you HAVE to be either Republican or Democrat. IMHO, there are not only 2 sides to every issue, and I hate that, come election time, I will have to vote one way or the other. I'm a registered Independent, solely because I can't make myself align with a political party and basically say "I agree with this party 100%." Because I don't.
I have to say, that it frustrates me to no end that churches get involved in trying to sway voters (not usually intentionally) to be a certain way. From my church, many people in the congregation pressure you to be Republican, and at home my family are true Democrats. And here I am, in the middle. And nobody seems to understand where I'm coming from when I say, I am right down the middle. *sigh*
Anyway, just wanted to say that I completely agree. :)
Brent, I have no plans to watch either convention, mostly because in the past I have never learned anything new about where the candidates stand on issues. Political speech will now be mostly about throwing mud at the other guy, and not saying something stupid so the other guy can't throw mud at you.
I use a few web sites to track the current dialogue on issues. Since both candidates are in Congress I also can look up their voting record.
Most new voters are registering as independents, which I think is a good sign that people are less ideological that in the past. I think more voters today do at least try to spend some time on the issue, and don't just vote the party. I also think the labels conservative and liberal are be becoming less meaningful.
I don't believe Americans are as informed on the issues as we should be. Even though I am retired I still haven't spent as much time as I should to investigating issues, perhaps because of all the time I have been spending on blogging. :)
Wow...I have had quite a day. Good, but busy. I am finally able to get to this and jump in!
I think most of us are thinking similar, but I have a few thoughts to jump in on
MandyConforth, Glad you feel my pain :) I am sure Donald has someone help write, but he is a writer himself and I believe his words were his own convictions.
Ric, thanks :)
GI, I really liked Reagan. He, to me, got it, cause he wasn't a politician. His unconventional leadership was his plus to me, but that is also his minus to others.
Cheryl, I would probably have to say that the attitude you speak of, comes mostly from the religious in our country.
Brandy, you just like to disagree :)
Jeff, Please do not apologize. Lay it out! you've spoken well and I am with Bad in your assessment. I agree. I believe however that Donald Miller is speaking what he believes. I believe he sees hope in politics, when I see hope in the church. I am not saying he doesn't see hope in the church, but he sees those platforms as things that are important to him. I believe he hopes that government will have answers fro them.
I however hope that government does not have answers for them, because business needs to be what it is and church needs to be what it is. I really struggle with government's heavy involvement in our lives. It is not the job of the state to pay for health insurance and it is most definitely not the government's job to determine someone's wage.
Bad,
"If anything, the changing political winds are helping many Christ-followers take the hard look at their involvement with politics and their reliance on government for things that are the church’s responsibility that they should have been taking all along."
I am thankful for this as well. I am grateful that some Christian leaders are stepping to the plate and asking the tough questions. It only furthers to define who we are as a church and who we are not.
"Here’s a news flash: The Kingdom of God has little or nothing to do with the success or failure of this country (or any other for that matter). When the United States falls (and we ARE falling) it will not signal the end of the world; thinking that way is so much collective egotism.
Amen!
Ed, I am voting as an independent this year. I think that everyone should. This 2 party system is what it is, but to have everyone int he country determine who they are before we even vote, makes no sense to me. My vote lies with those who see "less government" as their priority.
Also,
,blockquote>"I don’t believe Americans are as informed on the issues as we should be."
I understand what you are saying here, but this is one of my issues with government. Why are they determining what the issues are? Shouldn't we...the people...be determining what the issues are? In that case, I think we already know the issues, the politicians just aren't listening. Or should I say, they are too wrapped up in their own agenda's.
Dave, thanks for your thoughts. I love what Paul said in Phillipians 1 regarding some that were preaching for selfish ambition or wrong intent. Vs. 18, "But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice." This is my attitude in this situation.
Judi, I feel for you :)
Tam...I know :)
Scott
· 1 year ago
I LOVED almost all of Don's prayer, but he DID inject politics into his prayer. Universal health care and raising the minimum wage are well known democratic positions, and while it's his right to add those things in, he's not immuned to criticism for it. I think it was a small blemish on an otherwise really moving prayer.
I think it was there though, because that is what Donald believes.
Mark Portrait
· 1 year ago
Brent,
Good post. I hear your frustration. Glad to see that Don was courageous enough to pray at the DNC. It is refreshing.
As Christians we need to be very careful not to fall in line politically in this country, but stay engaged. All the while never forgetting that to us we really don't live in a democracy, but an absolute monarchy under the kingship of Jesus.
On a personal note, I have to confess that I grimace when I think of the way Bush team played Evangelicals in 2000 and 2004. We were approached as one large voting block and for the most part responded accordingly. Yet we now are left with the war, Katrina, greater suffering for the poor and much more. Perhaps the greatest failing is the lingering damage done to young people in the US who believe the Church is a Republican institution. We've let them down by straying too far from the throne of Christ and too close to the seat of power.
It's time for us to reflect on our role in the divisiveness that has become the underpinnings of the right. It doesn't serve our country, our children or our savior well.
but it’s like we somehow expect the government to rise up and do what the Church should be doing but has failed to do.
I understand Jeff's frustration the here. I belong to a faith community here in Maryland that is fairly liberal, even more so than me. A guest speaker a couple weeks ago talked about Christians making a difference in our country and at one point she matter of factly mentioned how our country is pursuing unjust wars. Not only do I not agree with her (although I don't completely disagree, either) I took exception to what she seemed to think was a foregone conclusion - if you happen to be a progressive Christian. With my son going off to boot camp in a couple of weeks it struck an additional raw chord with me.
Though we certainly don't want the church to get back into the martial arts (that wasn't such a good time) but we sure enjoy being able to worship freely and speak our minds, which I happen to believe is guaranteed by those folks that are not pacifists (many of them Christians).
And where as Christians we expect the government to defend us, we also seem to expect the government to 'feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick and imprisoned'. Because the sad fact is that the Church, as a whole, just does not do it. Government hasn't taken these responsibilities from the Church (responsibilities that Christians never 'owned') but has instead stepped in where others have not.
Since the Church (if there really is something deserving of that name) doesn't step in, who will?
Mandalynn, I realized that I did not respond to you. I apologize. I think your concerns are justified. the church is still a part of dividing the political lines. It's unfortunate.
Mark, Welcome. I will look forward to more of your thoughts. I grimace at what the religious right movement has done. It seems they set some sort of standard for themselves that is neither Biblical or Democratic. Just agenda based. I hope we don't see the Democratic party take it out of balance the other way. Religion should not be a platform for politics...ever.
Bad, I am sure they are just voicing their frustrations as I am. Donald left some room for critique when he decided to use political platform in his prayer. I honestly do believe though, that this is his stance, not just a parties. I don't believe he wrote this prayer to pleases any particular side, but he did interject his own stance into it. So be it. Jesus was praised.
inworship
· 1 year ago
"Since the Church (if there really is something deserving of that name) doesn’t step in, who will?"
Firs of all C, I am not as cynical of the church. I see the church as those who do the things you are talking about and it does exist, it just doesn't match up with the size and strength of those who say they are the church.
You are dead on in my thinking in that, our world...not just the American government...is stepping in to do what needs to be done. the problem with that is twofold. #1 the church at large is not getting it done. #2 the world is determining what is right and just, instead of a Spirit lead church.
Christian
· 1 year ago
it just doesn’t match up with the size and strength of those who say they are the church.
Well put. The capital C keeps getting smaller.
I think that your point #2 underlines the idea that as Christians we should become MORE involved in politics and civics, not LESS involved. I'm not talking about PACs and lobbying or political endorsement, but being unafraid to step in and work shoulder to shoulder with those who may not claim similar religious (or may even claim different religious) affiliations from ourselves.
The GOOD thing about America is that we don't so easily form a consensus of political thought. Countries that do often find themselves slipping into fascism. I think the same thing can be said about religion. We shouldn't allow our disagreements over politics or orthodoxy get in the way of doing what needs to be done for the Kingdom.
inworship
· 1 year ago
I can see how point #2 would be taken that way, but it is exactly that opposite. We as Christians should be leading what is right and just and Godly. We don't even need politics to do this. This is not to say that we take over politics, cause then we would cease, again, to be the church. If we stay focused on what it means to be the church and go boldly in it, politics are truly an afterthought. Just like Jesus seemed to approach it.
On whether or not we are working side by side with others, religious or not, that goes without saying if we are truly the church.
Christian
· 1 year ago
You aren't espousing some sort of watered down version of Christan anarchy are you? WE are the government. Once we start recusing ourselves from the political and civic arena then we have turned things over to the 'powers and principalities'. Of course we don't want to become those same powers (but it's a little late to be worrying about that), we want to remember that government is a necessary 'evil'. Unless we intend to go back to the first Christian church paradigm, which ain't likely to happen any time soon.
What does the bible say about being snakes and doves?
inworship
· 1 year ago
No, definitely not, "Give Ceaser what is Ceaser's."
Worldly government is clearly not going anywhere. It is a necessary evil. But it is not my ultimate authority. I do believe the day is coming, in America, where I will have to choose between my faith and what the government tells me. This has happened over time and is happening around the world now. there does come a point where we have to choose.
I am not interested in dissecting myself from the world. I am looking to engage even more into it. But, I don't believe that ultimately the world has the same intentions as I do. I do "this" to show them Jesus. They can only do that, if they believe as well.
Christian
· 1 year ago
Now who's being cynical? ;)
You reminded me of about something I just read. Once, when Rome tried to smother the Christians they made it a law that everyone would have to make sacrifices to the Roman gods. According to W. H. C. Frend's "The Rise of Christianity" so many Christians rushed to make sacrifices and avoid imperial displeasure that "the Christian church practically collapsed".
inworship
· 1 year ago
I keep thinking that "the road is narrow and few are those who travel it".
Cynical...me :)
Christian
· 1 year ago
Yep. Little c.
inworship
· 1 year ago
So as to not offend, should I start using c instead of C when talking to you :)
Christian
· 1 year ago
If there were only something even smaller. Like your pinkie.
inworship
· 1 year ago
Hahahaha!!!!!
badguy
· 1 year ago
"like your pinkie" - that was handled a lot nicer than it could have been...
"“like your pinkie” - that was handled a lot nicer than it could have been…"
Of course it could have been over beer as well :)
Jason
· 1 year ago
you know that you are causing division over division, don't you?
As well, you are also telling other people what should be important to them while yet, "I don’t even begin to declare that my thoughts have the answers"
If you really had a problem with division you wouldn't be causing it.
The prayer Miller prayed was a very well-scripted prayer, which is in my opinion has just enough Democrat in it to keep me from thinking he's sold out to the GOP. In fact, it really was an excellent prayer, reminding me of those ϋber-talented, powerful "prayer ninjas" that I once read about in a blog called Stuff Christians Like.
George R. Eddy
· 1 year ago
The prayer Miller prayed was a very well-scripted prayer, which is in my opinion has just enough Democrat in it to keep me from thinking he’s sold out to the GOP. In fact, it really was an excellent prayer, reminding me of those ϋber-talented, powerful “prayer ninjas” that I once read about in a blog called Stuff Christians Like
Terribly sorry, sir, but in that first comment, the website was incorrect, and there was no way to delete or correct it. That's one thing LiveJournal is still able to do that Wordpress still can't. I like to brag that Wordpress is what LiveJournal wants to be when it grows up, but this bug makes it impossible to fix my bugs.
No worries. And, sir? We are all friends here, no sir necessary :)
ckroboth
· 1 year ago
I started to comment a couple times to this post.. But it wasn't tell Nor's post today, that I came out of hiding...
I read Bad's comment and just want say he is Spot on...
If anything, the changing political winds are helping many Christ-followers take the hard look at their involvement with politics and their reliance on government for things that are the church’s responsibility that they should have been taking all along.
I have done this and it is so freeing not to rely on the things of this world, including the government.
I know I do not have to vote. However, I think that, many people don't and it's not right.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear, but I wasn't trying to say that I will be voting for either of the 2 main parties come November. I know that many people are frustrated with our "2" choices this year, feeling that America is getting "screwed" whichever one we choose. Well I don't know about that, but I have a feeling that there will be a high amount of people voting for an independent, or libertarian this fall. Definitely not enough to actually clinch the vote, and probably not quite the number that did in the 1992 election, trying to get their voice heard that indeed this two-party system is not working. I don't agree with not voting to get your voice heard; I find it contradictory to what America is supposed to stand for.
For the first time in hundreds of years, America is more pessimistic than ever about where the country is going. According to a recent poll almost 80% agreed with the statement that they think "America isn't headed in the right direction".
Carl, I think Bad brought up a really good point there.
Mandy, I hear you. I think the quote that Carl, jut highlighted from Bad speaks to what you are saying. We are more aware and alert right now than we have been as a people for a long time. It will be interesting to see if people can lay down "allegiance" to party and really vote their heart.
badguy
· 1 year ago
I wanted to throw this out as an alternative perspective on this discussion. I encourage you to take the time not only to read this post, but follow the links as well...
All Comments
Nothing wrong with that. Obviously.
TheNorEaster's last blog post...Snowflakes 1
I'll feel the same about next week's event. It's all scripted by professionals, nothing's real. It's all rehearsed & planned to say just the right thing, with just the right twist to rally in as many folks as possible. It's not the candidates words..it's a writer's words.
I wonder if Mr. Miller spent time praying for the right words to say or if they were scripted by a writer. I turned it off believing that it was all a play & they'll run a repeat next week when the Rep. gather.
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Congrats on resisting the hype and turning off the rhetoric.
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My hat is off to Don for going there when asked and praying from his heart. For what it's worth, that was one of the best prayers I've heard prayed for our country in a long time.
We need more people like Don and Rick Warren to open up the dialogue between both sides and reminding us that when we accepted Christ that doesn't mean our Republican voting card showed up in the mail the next week.
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However, here's the problem with saying a prayer at such an event. I hope this doesn't come across as causing division, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. Email me if you don't want to air it in public.
Reading the text of the prayer, it's all good (for me) until this line:
"Give those in this room who have power, along with those who will meet next week, the courage to work together to finally provide health care to those who don’t have any, and a living wage so families can thrive rather than struggle."
How can somebody like me, who believes in their heart of hearts that government putting something like this into practice is nothing short of compulsory socialism/communism, and that said practice is wrong, dead wrong?
Maybe I'm showing my age or something, or my died-in-the-wool conservatism, but how do I get behind something like that? I've been thinking about blogging my thoughts, but I really don't like getting political on my blog, so I've left it alone.
It seems to me that many well-meaning Christ-followers, who see social justice as an integral part of their faith (I agree) want to see government take on what is the responsibility of the Church. In addition, these things like providing for the needs of others, is a call placed upon Christ-followers, but it's like we somehow expect the government to rise up and do what the Church should be doing but has failed to do. How can I expect that out of people who are not Christ-followers?
I don't know, and this is part of my frustration. I see the heart of love behind such actions, but I can't support them in good conscience because of their compulsory nature. I can't get behind that.
Am I way off base in your opinion? Hit me. :)
JMM - I'll take a shot at you! I think you're angst is well-founded. Let me take one of your statements and just change a word or two...
"It seems to me that many well-meaning Christ-followers, who see pro-life as an integral part of their faith (I agree) want to see government take on what is the responsibility of the Church. In addition, these things like providing for the needs of others, is a call placed upon Christ-followers, but it’s like we somehow expect the government to rise up and do what the Church should be doing but has failed to do. How can I expect that out of people who are not Christ-followers?"
Does this statement still fill you with the same frustration? I think it should.
If anything, the changing political winds are helping many Christ-followers take the hard look at their involvement with politics and their reliance on government for things that are the church's responsibility that they should have been taking all along.
The church - in its earliest form - existed independently of the political power structure. The lack of involvement with the ruling authority of the day is something that should be examined closely; there might be a message in there for us today.
Here's a news flash: The Kingdom of God has little or nothing to do with the success or failure of this country (or any other for that matter). When the United States falls (and we ARE falling) it will not signal the end of the world; thinking that way is so much collective egotism.
My $.02 - feel free to hit me back.
badguy's last blog post...Olympic Gold
I agree with you Brent, if someone calls you to prayer then you should indeed do it.
As a foreigner, I have noticed that there is this perception that God is a Republican who dwells and speaks only in the USA. That's just an observation from someone who has lived here for 11 years.
Cheryl's last blog post...Some Olympic Thoughts...
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I totally agree that the success of the Kingdom has nothing to do with the rise and fall of the USA. I love the USA, and hate to see our freedoms chipped away at everyday, but the best thing that might happen to American Christianity is for our freedom to be taken from us. Then we'll see if we are authentic or not.
I regret those days where I was standing in front of an abortion clinic and protesting. I felt like I was standing up for my faith—which I was—but it was faith without grace.
Maybe grace shared through us to those who are pro-choice would do more to change their hearts than our protests. Have we shown them the love of Christ FIRST?
he married mobsters, had crystals as a part of the ceremony... blah blah blah. But in all of the scenario's Jesus was a part of the event.
I'd pray wherever they asked me too
Dave Carrol's last blog post...When bearded Austrailians who fake cancer get swallowed by whales... TONIGHT on FOX
I have to say, that it frustrates me to no end that churches get involved in trying to sway voters (not usually intentionally) to be a certain way. From my church, many people in the congregation pressure you to be Republican, and at home my family are true Democrats. And here I am, in the middle. And nobody seems to understand where I'm coming from when I say, I am right down the middle. *sigh*
Anyway, just wanted to say that I completely agree. :)
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I use a few web sites to track the current dialogue on issues. Since both candidates are in Congress I also can look up their voting record.
Most new voters are registering as independents, which I think is a good sign that people are less ideological that in the past. I think more voters today do at least try to spend some time on the issue, and don't just vote the party. I also think the labels conservative and liberal are be becoming less meaningful.
I don't believe Americans are as informed on the issues as we should be. Even though I am retired I still haven't spent as much time as I should to investigating issues, perhaps because of all the time I have been spending on blogging. :)
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I think most of us are thinking similar, but I have a few thoughts to jump in on
MandyConforth, Glad you feel my pain :) I am sure Donald has someone help write, but he is a writer himself and I believe his words were his own convictions.
Ric, thanks :)
GI, I really liked Reagan. He, to me, got it, cause he wasn't a politician. His unconventional leadership was his plus to me, but that is also his minus to others.
Cheryl, I would probably have to say that the attitude you speak of, comes mostly from the religious in our country.
Brandy, you just like to disagree :)
Jeff, Please do not apologize. Lay it out! you've spoken well and I am with Bad in your assessment. I agree. I believe however that Donald Miller is speaking what he believes. I believe he sees hope in politics, when I see hope in the church. I am not saying he doesn't see hope in the church, but he sees those platforms as things that are important to him. I believe he hopes that government will have answers fro them.
I however hope that government does not have answers for them, because business needs to be what it is and church needs to be what it is. I really struggle with government's heavy involvement in our lives. It is not the job of the state to pay for health insurance and it is most definitely not the government's job to determine someone's wage.
Bad,
I am thankful for this as well. I am grateful that some Christian leaders are stepping to the plate and asking the tough questions. It only furthers to define who we are as a church and who we are not.
Amen!
Ed, I am voting as an independent this year. I think that everyone should. This 2 party system is what it is, but to have everyone int he country determine who they are before we even vote, makes no sense to me. My vote lies with those who see "less government" as their priority.
Also,
,blockquote>"I don’t believe Americans are as informed on the issues as we should be."
I understand what you are saying here, but this is one of my issues with government. Why are they determining what the issues are? Shouldn't we...the people...be determining what the issues are? In that case, I think we already know the issues, the politicians just aren't listening. Or should I say, they are too wrapped up in their own agenda's.
Dave, thanks for your thoughts. I love what Paul said in Phillipians 1 regarding some that were preaching for selfish ambition or wrong intent. Vs. 18, "But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice." This is my attitude in this situation.
Judi, I feel for you :)
Tam...I know :)
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I think it was there though, because that is what Donald believes.
Good post. I hear your frustration. Glad to see that Don was courageous enough to pray at the DNC. It is refreshing.
As Christians we need to be very careful not to fall in line politically in this country, but stay engaged. All the while never forgetting that to us we really don't live in a democracy, but an absolute monarchy under the kingship of Jesus.
On a personal note, I have to confess that I grimace when I think of the way Bush team played Evangelicals in 2000 and 2004. We were approached as one large voting block and for the most part responded accordingly. Yet we now are left with the war, Katrina, greater suffering for the poor and much more. Perhaps the greatest failing is the lingering damage done to young people in the US who believe the Church is a Republican institution. We've let them down by straying too far from the throne of Christ and too close to the seat of power.
It's time for us to reflect on our role in the divisiveness that has become the underpinnings of the right. It doesn't serve our country, our children or our savior well.
More to follow at my blog www.markportrait.com
What about the people in the crowd that kept their eyes open? Obviously Godless heathens... :-0
Wait a minute...Don had HIS eyes open. wtf???
Mandy and others - you know you don't have to vote at all.
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I understand Jeff's frustration the here. I belong to a faith community here in Maryland that is fairly liberal, even more so than me. A guest speaker a couple weeks ago talked about Christians making a difference in our country and at one point she matter of factly mentioned how our country is pursuing unjust wars. Not only do I not agree with her (although I don't completely disagree, either) I took exception to what she seemed to think was a foregone conclusion - if you happen to be a progressive Christian. With my son going off to boot camp in a couple of weeks it struck an additional raw chord with me.
Though we certainly don't want the church to get back into the martial arts (that wasn't such a good time) but we sure enjoy being able to worship freely and speak our minds, which I happen to believe is guaranteed by those folks that are not pacifists (many of them Christians).
And where as Christians we expect the government to defend us, we also seem to expect the government to 'feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick and imprisoned'. Because the sad fact is that the Church, as a whole, just does not do it. Government hasn't taken these responsibilities from the Church (responsibilities that Christians never 'owned') but has instead stepped in where others have not.
Since the Church (if there really is something deserving of that name) doesn't step in, who will?
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Mark, Welcome. I will look forward to more of your thoughts. I grimace at what the religious right movement has done. It seems they set some sort of standard for themselves that is neither Biblical or Democratic. Just agenda based. I hope we don't see the Democratic party take it out of balance the other way. Religion should not be a platform for politics...ever.
Bad, I am sure they are just voicing their frustrations as I am. Donald left some room for critique when he decided to use political platform in his prayer. I honestly do believe though, that this is his stance, not just a parties. I don't believe he wrote this prayer to pleases any particular side, but he did interject his own stance into it. So be it. Jesus was praised.
Firs of all C, I am not as cynical of the church. I see the church as those who do the things you are talking about and it does exist, it just doesn't match up with the size and strength of those who say they are the church.
You are dead on in my thinking in that, our world...not just the American government...is stepping in to do what needs to be done. the problem with that is twofold. #1 the church at large is not getting it done. #2 the world is determining what is right and just, instead of a Spirit lead church.
Well put. The capital C keeps getting smaller.
I think that your point #2 underlines the idea that as Christians we should become MORE involved in politics and civics, not LESS involved. I'm not talking about PACs and lobbying or political endorsement, but being unafraid to step in and work shoulder to shoulder with those who may not claim similar religious (or may even claim different religious) affiliations from ourselves.
The GOOD thing about America is that we don't so easily form a consensus of political thought. Countries that do often find themselves slipping into fascism. I think the same thing can be said about religion. We shouldn't allow our disagreements over politics or orthodoxy get in the way of doing what needs to be done for the Kingdom.
On whether or not we are working side by side with others, religious or not, that goes without saying if we are truly the church.
What does the bible say about being snakes and doves?
Worldly government is clearly not going anywhere. It is a necessary evil. But it is not my ultimate authority. I do believe the day is coming, in America, where I will have to choose between my faith and what the government tells me. This has happened over time and is happening around the world now. there does come a point where we have to choose.
I am not interested in dissecting myself from the world. I am looking to engage even more into it. But, I don't believe that ultimately the world has the same intentions as I do. I do "this" to show them Jesus. They can only do that, if they believe as well.
You reminded me of about something I just read. Once, when Rome tried to smother the Christians they made it a law that everyone would have to make sacrifices to the Roman gods. According to W. H. C. Frend's "The Rise of Christianity" so many Christians rushed to make sacrifices and avoid imperial displeasure that "the Christian church practically collapsed".
Cynical...me :)
little c church...big C cynical!
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Of course it could have been over beer as well :)
As well, you are also telling other people what should be important to them while yet, "I don’t even begin to declare that my thoughts have the answers"
If you really had a problem with division you wouldn't be causing it.
:roll: No I don't.
;-)
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I read Bad's comment and just want say he is Spot on...
I have done this and it is so freeing not to rely on the things of this world, including the government.
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I know I do not have to vote. However, I think that, many people don't and it's not right.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear, but I wasn't trying to say that I will be voting for either of the 2 main parties come November. I know that many people are frustrated with our "2" choices this year, feeling that America is getting "screwed" whichever one we choose. Well I don't know about that, but I have a feeling that there will be a high amount of people voting for an independent, or libertarian this fall. Definitely not enough to actually clinch the vote, and probably not quite the number that did in the 1992 election, trying to get their voice heard that indeed this two-party system is not working. I don't agree with not voting to get your voice heard; I find it contradictory to what America is supposed to stand for.
For the first time in hundreds of years, America is more pessimistic than ever about where the country is going. According to a recent poll almost 80% agreed with the statement that they think "America isn't headed in the right direction".
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Mandy, I hear you. I think the quote that Carl, jut highlighted from Bad speaks to what you are saying. We are more aware and alert right now than we have been as a people for a long time. It will be interesting to see if people can lay down "allegiance" to party and really vote their heart.
http://postmodernegro.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/...
(note: I met Anthony this summer at Cornerstone where he was an invited speaker.)
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