As of this post, you know more than me on this topic.
When you link mother to woman are you/we revealing a learned gender prejudice? Would a transgender individual consider mother to be a role rather than a gender? I'll be check back to see what the thoughts are on this one.
On a serious note, I was checked out by a transgendered once. Let me rephrase that: I was at a Safeway (grocery store) and my checker was a transgendered male-to-female. I admit to having been uneasy about it at first, but it actually shouldn't have been all-too-weird. I decided to look beyond the facade and just treated 'her' as a human being.
Iman
· 1 year ago
My question is the same as yours B...if Mr. Beatie was intent on becoming a man then why did he decide to have a baby that only a, gender specific, woman can do? I actually feel sad for him because of all the confusion he's going through.
"When you link mother to woman are you/we revealing a learned gender prejudice? Would a transgender individual consider mother to be a role rather than a gender?"
I am not sure I would say I am "gender prejudice" to believe a person born physically a woman or a man is just that. I do understand that so much more can play into the transgender's than just "he has a penis". This is some of what I am trying to understand.
In the case of this specific person though, they not only wanted to "mother" a child, but they wanted to physically birth this child as only a woman could. This tells me this specific person wants to be both man and woman. The ultimate being :)
Jon, there is no doubt in my mind that anyone, transgender or not, needs to be treated as a human, valuable and important.
Iman, I don't know this person's whole mind set, so maybe they are really happy...not sure. But I am sure there is much emotional and mental turmoil to go through a life like this, whatever that looks like.
blessed1
· 1 year ago
Coincidentally enough my boss and I were having this same convo last week, after making a house call to a woman who was transgender, and lived like a man. 'debbie' told us she wore men's underwear and took hormones, and now had to shave. I was amazed at her ability to lay it on the table, and be very upfront about it. Neither me or my boss asked about her, but she felt the need to explain her lifestyle...which I'm not sure why. Neither of us gawked or treated her any different than any other client we go see. We left wondering what it is that made one transgender as well. 'debbie' was a wonderful lady, that looked like a man...and it was a little confusing but not repulsive in any way. She wanted to be a he. I don't know if I agree with those that choose to change their hormonal status, but I certainly don't judge them....as they're people and God's children just like the rest of us.
I think your comment is interesting though...that Thomas is in his mind a man...but wants to mother his child. You can't be both....can you??
"I think your comment is interesting though…that Thomas is in his mind a man…but wants to mother his child. You can’t be both….can you??"
If this is truly his intent, I have issue with it. It goes right along with this selfish, "want it all" attitude in our world. It sickens me. It also completely takes God out of the picture and puts all control :seemingly) into the hands of this person.
seven
· 1 year ago
Wow, I don't know anything about this, but it will be interesting to read some thoughts about it.
Debs
· 1 year ago
To me there is an emotional problem, not really a sexual one. God doesn't create a person with the genitals of a male and the consciousness and heart of a female. In Genesis 1:26, the Bible says, "And God created man in His image, in His likeness; male and female He created them....and it was very good." Maleness and femaleness (?) are God's choice, determined at conception. But growing into one's masculinity or femininity can be thwarted by very early events that prevent children from having a clear sense of their gender. It is the same thought process of why so many people think they were born gay or lesbian as well. The biblical view is that God's intent for every male is to grow into masculinity, and for every female to grow into femininity. When that doesn't happen, the culture has come up with new labels to describe something new and different: transgender, transsexual. I don’t think God is affected by these new labels nor does He have to honor them: He sees the people behind the labels as His precious, broken children. The Bible tells me (Gen 1:26) that God's intent is heterosexuality, with definite boundaries between men and women in both appearance and behavior. IMO, God views every individual as He made them. While He did not make clones, he did create males and females with certain unique sexual characteristics. He also intended for males to have primarily masculine characteristics, and for females to have primarily feminine characteristics. He has also provided direction on how we are to relate to one another. There is no prohibition regarding a slightly more "masculine" female or a slightly more "feminine" man. God views them as he does anyone else, with love and delight, and He desires that they experience all the freedom He designed them to have, within the boundaries of the sexual identity God gave to them. Even those born with genital ambiguity are expected to submit to His boundaries. I know that sounds harsh, and I may be getting off topic, but I’m not really sure how else to say it. I also realize this is a very politically incorrect perspective in a sex-saturated culture that declares sexual expression is a right for everyone. But it isn't. God wants every person, regardless of their genital or chromosomal condition, to submit his or her sexuality to Him and to glorify Him in whatever state we find ourselves. Sorry this is so long…but I’ve been following this as well, and hopefully I made some sense….
Ultimately, if you were born a man, you will always be a man and if you were born a woman you will always be a woman. You can nip, tuck, dress up, and take hormones all you want, but genetic markers and bone structure don't lie... period. Pre-op, post-op, mid-op, it really doesn't matter. There are some things (like gender) that simply are the way they are.
This whole situation brings to mind the EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT F.X. television series: Black/White in which an African-American Family and a White family were put in the same house and each were made up by professional makeup artists to appear the race of the other. It was the same for the black family as it was for the white. On the outside, they appeared different, but their outlooks and cultural identities stayed the same, even if they were impacted emotionally and idealistically by their time spent as a member of the "others."
Being a man or a woman is more than just looking the part. At it's deepest core, it's genetics... period. No amount of tinkering around with your body parts will change your DNA. It's like saying that you don't want to be a human, that you want to be a cat. That's all well and good to say, but no amount of tinkering will make you a cat. Maybe all this sounds ignorant, but it all just seems so obvious. Am I just hopelessly dunder-headed or what? Please let me know.
Deb, one of my thoughts in this process is that, if a man or woman "feels" like they are living the wrong gender, they can take hormones to encourage those feelings to go away. Just as they can take hormones to become something different, they can take hormones to strengthen what they already are. Unless of course, mentally they have made the decision to be something different. Then it becomes different then what God intended.
Ben, thanks for stopping by! I saw some of that series. It was very interesting. it also made me really uncomfortable at times, which was probably good. You've hit the scientific reality of us as humans...genetics. I do understand that everyone is born with different x y configurations, but this doesn't seem to be a determining factor in the decision of some transgender's. Which again, would cause me to believe they just "want" something else.
You also hit it on the head, that no amount of "tinkering" can change the genetic fact. You and Deb have spoken to the emotional or mental issues in all this. I am leaning towards that being much more a factor than hormones in the process of a transgender person.
Maybe someone can tell me differently?
alex mclean
· 1 year ago
I agree with the Guinness comment the most... I chock this up to the fact that people are weird. I think a man having a baby is weird. Maybe I'm weird.
She/He is human, regaurdless of anything else we must love him as followers of Christ. God will be his Judge, God will deal with the rest.
Side note that speaks to this situation: We had a great sermon at Church a couple weeks ago about Judging... Watch it here. Give it a second to load. http://secc.lightcastmedia.com/console.php?u=30...
Basically we are to not Judge those who are not followers of Christ, but we are can not tolerate sin with in the followers of Christ.
Carl, I'll take some time tomorrow to listen through to that. I agree with you. It's hard for us to love sometimes, cause we just don't understand. that shouldn't be an excuse though.
Kristen
· 1 year ago
What got me about this particular person is the media coverage of a "man" being pregnant...as if this was some amazing thing. She is not a man, she is a woman who has changed her body into taking on male characteristics with surgery and hormones. I have no judgments on whether or not this is right or wrong because that is not for me to decide, I just think the media coverage of it was completely ridiculous.
I have actually been following this story from the beginning. Is that wierd? :lol: Seriously, it's bizarre.
Also, my opinion is the same as Kristen's....it's NOT a man that was pregnant. It was woman. It annoyed me that they blew it up like some amazing medical feat....that a MAN was pregnant.
Also, I feel very sorry for the baby. Think about what this little girl is going to have to wrap her brain around when she is older. That her "daddy" was her "mommy" and that she didn't grow in her mommy's belly but her daddy's belly instead. I mean GEEZE that confuses even me and I've followd this story from the beginning.
Like you B, I don't like the idea that this person wants to be a man, but ALSO wants to fulfill what God created him/her/he/she to do in the first place. You can't have it both ways.
It's very sad. And like it was stated before....the emotional aspect to this is HUGE. HUGE.
Kristen, I agree. The media coverage has been a bit absurd. And, it turns out that this is not the first transgender man to give birth. They are pushing that a bit far.
Brandy, I am curious, since this person was taking male hormones, if that will have any affect on the baby? Could a "man's" physical make up be damaging to child birth?
C, Guinness helps produce breast milk? That's actually quite interesting :)
Michelle
· 1 year ago
So what do we do in the church when a transgender has come in, living as a married couple, serving in a leadership? Or even not serving, but taking the name Christian yet living outside the biblical boundaries?
Early in our ministry we had this situation occur...but no one knew until much later. What do you think the appropriate response would have been? Anyone?
1 Cor5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
This goes for every person who is part of Christ's church who are living in any type of sin, not just sexual sin.
In other words if they claim to be followers of Christ they should know there actions are sin and repent from it.
inworship
· 1 year ago
Michelle, that is a completely different discussion, in my opinion. especially when it come to church leadership.
But, I would have to agree with Carl here on the standards of church. The definition of church needs to be established as well. Many churches are both evangelistic in nature as well as more discipleship focused. that isn't the discussion here necessarily, but I see people in different roles on both those environments.
"The Church" is the body of believers. not a building or services or programs. "The Church" is held to a standard and to be a part of it, we are to be held accountable byt God's Word.
inworship
· 1 year ago
Michelle, a question, was this transgender person one that was born and given "assigned" a gender or one that made the decision, like this person in my post, to later change there gender orientation?
Brandy
· 1 year ago
oooh B, good point. I never thought of that. :( That is sad. I would think that all of those hormones WOULD have an affect. It did say in one article that I read that "he" stopped taking them prior to getting PG (something SO wrong with this sentence) so hopefully they were out of "his" system?? But even still, who knows what the long term affects will be. :(
We take meds when we have aches, pains, cough...REAL tangible type situations. We also take meds when we feel depressed, have too much anxiety, hyperactivity...emotional things. We have become dependant on suppressing feelings & emotions, rather than experiencing. It somehow seems easier. Problem is, we don't calculate the risks or problems that will be created. Or even worse..we don't CARE about said risks or problems. We just want less pain, less emotions, less feeling.
While Thomas was on Oprah, he said that he's having to receive MORE meds to keep his body from rejecting the pregnancy because of all the male hormone he had taken (he stopped taking them while pregnant).
He also claimed that after the show they would be moving their business (t-shirt designs) out of Bend into Portland which they believed would be more accepting.
Much like Mandy said we use drugs to cover and mask pain... Maybe something horrific happened to her(this person is female no matter the drugs or surgeries) when she was younger that she was made to feel guilty for. This made her start to resent her femininity. In her hurt and anger, she saw sexual reassignment as a way to mask her anger and hurt towards her true female identity.
Brandy, I didn't see that in the article. So "he" stopped taking the hormones before the pregnancy. Wow! that speaks volumes to this persons decision as well.
Mandy,
"He also claimed that after the show they would be moving their business (t-shirt designs) out of Bend into Portland which they believed would be more accepting."
"We have become dependant on suppressing feelings & emotions, rather than experiencing."
Whatever pain this person is going through, they are doing everything to run from it and suppress it. Very good thoughts Mandy. Definitely things we all need to think about.
Carl, I believe very strongly that in this situation, this to some extent has taken place. It is either a terrible past or a huge arrogance, that has led this person to make these decisions.
ckroboth
· 1 year ago
Brent-- I am just glad that there is a God that will sort all this out in the end. It is just waiting out his timing that is hard sometimes.
I think this whole things with this person is very sad...I wonder what/who/when did something so drastic happen that he/she would rather be something unnatural than deal with who they are. Having a pregnancy seems like her/his choice, maybe second thoughts...or maybe a result of the reason that drove them to this point..only God knows, but now I feel like I need to pray for them to experience Jesus.
This person was not born with confused genitalia, if that is the question, Brent. This was something she/he chose later. I was glad to see Carl's response. After finding out and discussing the situation for more clarification, he decided to leave the church knowing our biblical stand (1 Cor. 5). We let him know if he ever wanted to talk further we would never turn him away. It was one of the most confusing situations we've ever come across. Even now, years later, it tears at my heart and I cannot give many details - I feel it would be a betrayal of sorts.
Michelle, no more details needed. I am sure it was very difficult.
Let me clarify something as well. I think the process of dealing with this person would have been different if they were born into this situation verses making the decision down the road. But, I think the outcome may have been the same though.
inworship
· 1 year ago
Darla, we truly need to lift this person and others up in prayer.
Michelle
· 1 year ago
Thanks, Brent. I still pray for reconciliation. Our world is very confused and the church needs to remain a place of light shining in the darkness.
It may not be showing up for the same reason you aren't seeing this discussion in your dashboard. I am self hosted now and not a part of wordpress anymore. So, this blog won't show up on the wordpress dashboard. also, your wordpress avatar won't work over here.
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Now...
I think as times keep changing, the church will be faced with new questions and tough decisions. I was reading Dan Kimball's blog the other day and someone had asked hi this question,
"If a homosexual couple gets married legally - and then sometimes afterwards this couple studies Scripture and determines that the practice of homosexuality would be considered sin - would the church endorse and recommend that they get divorced, if the same church holds that a couple shouldn't get divorced unless there was marital unfaithfulness etc. and in this case, they were faithful to each other in their gay marriage."
I think I know how I would answer, but I am pretty certain the church didn't have to think thing like this through 20 years ago.
as ties continue to change, I think the church will have to address many things it never has before. I thought
Michelle
· 1 year ago
Thanks again, Brent. ;)
I think the question asked at Dan Kimball's blog is bogus. Not to be too hard nosed :roll: but the first century church did have this situation in Corinth. Nothing new under the sun, right? Sure, maybe not 20 years ago, but around 2000 years ago homosexuality was quite prevalent in the Roman empire.
I think most of our questions can be answered scripturally.
Sure, I think that the person asking wanted to see if the church would condone Divorce in this situation. My opinion is that they were not under God's marriage covenant, sot hey weren't married. So, in that case, there is no divorce, just a legal destroying of the marriage documents.
Mandy, we were pretty certain there had been some messy stuff in her past. But our god is bigger than any of those issues and there still comes a time where people either surrender to him or not. She has made her decision.
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ckroboth's last blog post...Identity as Innocent Children
When you link mother to woman are you/we revealing a learned gender prejudice? Would a transgender individual consider mother to be a role rather than a gender? I'll be check back to see what the thoughts are on this one.
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jon's last blog post...rockin the kiddie pool!!!
On a serious note, I was checked out by a transgendered once. Let me rephrase that: I was at a Safeway (grocery store) and my checker was a transgendered male-to-female. I admit to having been uneasy about it at first, but it actually shouldn't have been all-too-weird. I decided to look beyond the facade and just treated 'her' as a human being.
Iman's last blog post...Defining Success
"When you link mother to woman are you/we revealing a learned gender prejudice? Would a transgender individual consider mother to be a role rather than a gender?"
I am not sure I would say I am "gender prejudice" to believe a person born physically a woman or a man is just that. I do understand that so much more can play into the transgender's than just "he has a penis". This is some of what I am trying to understand.
In the case of this specific person though, they not only wanted to "mother" a child, but they wanted to physically birth this child as only a woman could. This tells me this specific person wants to be both man and woman. The ultimate being :)
Jon, there is no doubt in my mind that anyone, transgender or not, needs to be treated as a human, valuable and important.
Iman, I don't know this person's whole mind set, so maybe they are really happy...not sure. But I am sure there is much emotional and mental turmoil to go through a life like this, whatever that looks like.
I think your comment is interesting though...that Thomas is in his mind a man...but wants to mother his child. You can't be both....can you??
blessed1's last blog post...So far it’s been a blast…
If this is truly his intent, I have issue with it. It goes right along with this selfish, "want it all" attitude in our world. It sickens me. It also completely takes God out of the picture and puts all control :seemingly) into the hands of this person.
It is the same thought process of why so many people think they were born gay or lesbian as well. The biblical view is that God's intent for every male is to grow into masculinity, and for every female to grow into femininity. When that doesn't happen, the culture has come up with new labels to describe something new and different: transgender, transsexual. I don’t think God is affected by these new labels nor does He have to honor them: He sees the people behind the labels as His precious, broken children. The Bible tells me (Gen 1:26) that God's intent is heterosexuality, with definite boundaries between men and women in both appearance and behavior.
IMO, God views every individual as He made them. While He did not make clones, he did create males and females with certain unique sexual characteristics. He also intended for males to have primarily masculine characteristics, and for females to have primarily feminine characteristics. He has also provided direction on how we are to relate to one another. There is no prohibition regarding a slightly more "masculine" female or a slightly more "feminine" man. God views them as he does anyone else, with love and delight, and He desires that they experience all the freedom He designed them to have, within the boundaries of the sexual identity God gave to them. Even those born with genital ambiguity are expected to submit to His boundaries. I know that sounds harsh, and I may be getting off topic, but I’m not really sure how else to say it. I also realize this is a very politically incorrect perspective in a sex-saturated culture that declares sexual expression is a right for everyone. But it isn't. God wants every person, regardless of their genital or chromosomal condition, to submit his or her sexuality to Him and to glorify Him in whatever state we find ourselves. Sorry this is so long…but I’ve been following this as well, and hopefully I made some sense….
Debs's last blog post...Allow me to gush a bit….
This whole situation brings to mind the EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT F.X. television series: Black/White in which an African-American Family and a White family were put in the same house and each were made up by professional makeup artists to appear the race of the other. It was the same for the black family as it was for the white. On the outside, they appeared different, but their outlooks and cultural identities stayed the same, even if they were impacted emotionally and idealistically by their time spent as a member of the "others."
Being a man or a woman is more than just looking the part. At it's deepest core, it's genetics... period. No amount of tinkering around with your body parts will change your DNA. It's like saying that you don't want to be a human, that you want to be a cat. That's all well and good to say, but no amount of tinkering will make you a cat. Maybe all this sounds ignorant, but it all just seems so obvious. Am I just hopelessly dunder-headed or what? Please let me know.
Ben's last blog post...Revelation Song: An Exercise in Dynamics
Ben, thanks for stopping by! I saw some of that series. It was very interesting. it also made me really uncomfortable at times, which was probably good. You've hit the scientific reality of us as humans...genetics. I do understand that everyone is born with different x y configurations, but this doesn't seem to be a determining factor in the decision of some transgender's. Which again, would cause me to believe they just "want" something else.
You also hit it on the head, that no amount of "tinkering" can change the genetic fact. You and Deb have spoken to the emotional or mental issues in all this. I am leaning towards that being much more a factor than hormones in the process of a transgender person.
Maybe someone can tell me differently?
alex mclean's last blog post...Macy Update 7.7.08
I too appreciated and agreed wholeheartedly with the Guinness comment...
does this mean that i can pee on fire hydrants now? :)
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She/He is human, regaurdless of anything else we must love him as followers of Christ. God will be his Judge, God will deal with the rest.
Side note that speaks to this situation:
We had a great sermon at Church a couple weeks ago about Judging... Watch it here. Give it a second to load. http://secc.lightcastmedia.com/console.php?u=30...
Basically we are to not Judge those who are not followers of Christ, but we are can not tolerate sin with in the followers of Christ.
ckroboth's last blog post...Identity as Innocent Children
Carl, I'll take some time tomorrow to listen through to that. I agree with you. It's hard for us to love sometimes, cause we just don't understand. that shouldn't be an excuse though.
Kristen's last blog post..."The Shack"
Also, my opinion is the same as Kristen's....it's NOT a man that was pregnant. It was woman. It annoyed me that they blew it up like some amazing medical feat....that a MAN was pregnant.
Also, I feel very sorry for the baby. Think about what this little girl is going to have to wrap her brain around when she is older. That her "daddy" was her "mommy" and that she didn't grow in her mommy's belly but her daddy's belly instead. I mean GEEZE that confuses even me and I've followd this story from the beginning.
Like you B, I don't like the idea that this person wants to be a man, but ALSO wants to fulfill what God created him/her/he/she to do in the first place. You can't have it both ways.
It's very sad. And like it was stated before....the emotional aspect to this is HUGE. HUGE.
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Brandy, I am curious, since this person was taking male hormones, if that will have any affect on the baby? Could a "man's" physical make up be damaging to child birth?
C, Guinness helps produce breast milk? That's actually quite interesting :)
Michelle's last blog post...A Simple Vacation
Michelle's last blog post...A Simple Vacation
This is what Paul had to say to the church in Corinth... http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%2...
Here is his conclusion....
1 Cor5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
This goes for every person who is part of Christ's church who are living in any type of sin, not just sexual sin.
In other words if they claim to be followers of Christ they should know there actions are sin and repent from it.
But, I would have to agree with Carl here on the standards of church. The definition of church needs to be established as well. Many churches are both evangelistic in nature as well as more discipleship focused. that isn't the discussion here necessarily, but I see people in different roles on both those environments.
"The Church" is the body of believers. not a building or services or programs. "The Church" is held to a standard and to be a part of it, we are to be held accountable byt God's Word.
Brandy's last blog post...Pictures!!
While Thomas was on Oprah, he said that he's having to receive MORE meds to keep his body from rejecting the pregnancy because of all the male hormone he had taken (he stopped taking them while pregnant).
He also claimed that after the show they would be moving their business (t-shirt designs) out of Bend into Portland which they believed would be more accepting.
Mandy's last blog post...Writers Blog (ck)
This is a hypothetical..
Much like Mandy said we use drugs to cover and mask pain...
Maybe something horrific happened to her(this person is female no matter the drugs or surgeries) when she was younger that she was made to feel guilty for. This made her start to resent her femininity. In her hurt and anger, she saw sexual reassignment as a way to mask her anger and hurt towards her true female identity.
ckroboth's last blog post...Identity as Innocent Children
Mandy,
"He also claimed that after the show they would be moving their business (t-shirt designs) out of Bend into Portland which they believed would be more accepting."
"We have become dependant on suppressing feelings & emotions, rather than experiencing."
Whatever pain this person is going through, they are doing everything to run from it and suppress it. Very good thoughts Mandy. Definitely things we all need to think about.
Carl, I believe very strongly that in this situation, this to some extent has taken place. It is either a terrible past or a huge arrogance, that has led this person to make these decisions.
ckroboth's last blog post...Identity as Innocent Children
darla's last blog post...Walking Partners
This person was not born with confused genitalia, if that is the question, Brent. This was something she/he chose later. I was glad to see Carl's response. After finding out and discussing the situation for more clarification, he decided to leave the church knowing our biblical stand (1 Cor. 5). We let him know if he ever wanted to talk further we would never turn him away. It was one of the most confusing situations we've ever come across. Even now, years later, it tears at my heart and I cannot give many details - I feel it would be a betrayal of sorts.
Michelle's last blog post...A Simple Vacation
Let me clarify something as well. I think the process of dealing with this person would have been different if they were born into this situation verses making the decision down the road. But, I think the outcome may have been the same though.
Michelle's last blog post...A Simple Vacation
Ok...two...and why won't the discussion show up in my comments in my dashboard?
Michelle's last blog post...A Simple Vacation
It may not be showing up for the same reason you aren't seeing this discussion in your dashboard. I am self hosted now and not a part of wordpress anymore. So, this blog won't show up on the wordpress dashboard. also, your wordpress avatar won't work over here.
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#2 Make sure you select the box next to "Notify me of followup comments via e-mail"underneath the comment box. This will send an email to you whenever someone responds to the post, so you can foloow along.
hope that helps.
Now...
I think as times keep changing, the church will be faced with new questions and tough decisions. I was reading Dan Kimball's blog the other day and someone had asked hi this question,
I think I know how I would answer, but I am pretty certain the church didn't have to think thing like this through 20 years ago.
as ties continue to change, I think the church will have to address many things it never has before. I thought
I think the question asked at Dan Kimball's blog is bogus. Not to be too hard nosed :roll: but the first century church did have this situation in Corinth. Nothing new under the sun, right? Sure, maybe not 20 years ago, but around 2000 years ago homosexuality was quite prevalent in the Roman empire.
I think most of our questions can be answered scripturally.
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