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Yes. But not extravagantly.
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why shouldn't they be??
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I worry about under paid pastors. How will they retire. Send kids to college? Ministry does not = the rest of us going about our business receiving their ministry while pastors have nothing. I think we are supposed to take care of them and honor them for their time of service towards we their flock. The stuff on TBN with all the pastor bling and ammusement park who ha, well, that is obviously out of balance and has done us no favors. But keeping pastors up with the standard of living, supporting them to be in homes, safe cars, med ins., etc., is in my opinion what we should strive for. Thats just me.
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What if God said to the pastor, "Don't take your income from the church. I am your Portion. Trust in me."? Then the pastor would obey God. (This happened to my friend and to say he is blessed is an understatement.)
Whatever God says to the church (to the elders, etc.) is how much they should be provided for. It is pretty much a no-brainer.
From God being the inheritance and portion for the Levites to 2 Corinthians 8 & 9, yes, the offices should be paid responsibly.
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In a similar post regarding worship songwriters being compensated for their work I brought up these 2 verses:
1 Timothy 5:18b (NIV) …”The worker deserves his wages.”
and
Romans 13:7 (AMP) Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
and 1 Timothy 5:17 says that an elder who does his job well deserves "double honor". The Greek word used in this verse actually means "of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold"
My pastor doesn't receive pay from the church because he has a business on the side, so it really depends on what the pastor hears from God.
The post mentioned: http://reidgreven.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/pay-...
Should Pastors get paid??
Well, the answer is the whole system is broke and needs to be fixed. This is a whole huge conversation. I'll be brief.
I was chair of both the Administrative Council and SPRC (basically the HR committee) for many years and oversaw the hire of two different pastors, so I speak from experience. I am part of a simple church now that has no pastor (although 3 of our 25 'members' are ordained ex-pastors from 2 different denominations) and we make out exceptionally well.
Some comments:
- Churches lose out when pastors are salaried. They only can get as 'good' a pastor as they can afford. Wealthy churches get 'great' pastors and poor churches in poverty stricken areas either get leftovers or 'good' pastors who don't care about getting paid. The 'middle-class' churches often mimic the 'middle-class' and spend more for a good pastor than they should and squander away tithing that could be better spent on things like the poor, homeless, etc.
- Pastors end up straddling the line between a career and ministry. I've told the story before about a friend of mine who is a church planter. While their church plant is doing well for it's 4th year (over 100 members) he has a mortgage and 4 kids one of whom is getting ready for college. He's desperately struggling to stimulate growth in what many (I) would consider a healthy, thriving church because it doesn't generate enough income to support he and his family.
- In order to boost their resume, Pastors often succumb to the Distinguished Baggage phenomenon (sorry for another troll Brent :( ). This has been the biggest factor in the fracturing and splintering of the Christian faith over the past 2000 years. It's the idea that in to distinguish oneself in the teaching (pastorate) field, you must do/say something unique and different. Put a new spin on things. Paul discusses this as early as his letters to the Corinthians in reference to the self proclaimed "super-apostles".
OK, that's enough... I can keep going, but most people (me) don't have enough attention span for long droning comments.
Should Christian financially support ministries?
Then it becomes more rhetorical. My dilemma is which ministries? There are so many. And who do I see as a leader in The Church? Many brothers and sisters have helped to equip me. Only a few of those are salaried pastors.
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I agree that we should support ministries, and I also agree with Buddy that the current (implied) system is hopelessly broken. Buddy alluded to just a few of the conflicts of interest that are inherent when the pastor is the paid professional. Scripture has a name for these folks - hirelings. (it's not used in a positive connotation...)
So there you have it Brent. Go get a real job like the rest of us! :-)
badguy's last blog post...What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
I guess if you think church is broken, then your answer would be a resounding no to if pastors should be paid. I think this goes right along the last post on Christian entertainment.
We as Christ followers are called to be a part of the church, both universal and local. We are called to give of ourselves, our money/time/gifts. Christ is using the local church to reach the world. Therefore, yes pastors should be paid.
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I am... ;)
If a pastor is paid he can focus time on pastoring.
If a pastor is paid he might feel pressure to keep those who pay him fat and happy.
Depends on the atmosphere of the individual church.
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We keep referring back to Paul and other early church leaders when we look for advice on how to 'do' church. And there is good advice there but we are nothing like the early church nor (let's face it) do we really want to be. They were essentially socialists living a communal existence.
But that's not how we live, especially here in America and we are much too individualistic to ever really want to. So we try to work with what we have.
I lean towards Buddy's point of view here, even though I belong to a community with a paid pastor ('enabling minister'). But we don't follow her, she doesn't tend to us, she does not set the spiritual tone - she is only someone who helps to facilitate the goals of our community.
So I think it should be up to each and every community to decide on how to go about 'doing' church. Keep it simple or go full tilt. As Buddy has said before on this topic; "live and let live".
Of course, if you are mega pastor (or a more simple one) and you are stepping OUTSIDE of your community to preach to the world at large then you have expanded your 'flock' (tee-hee) and leave yourself open for criticism, especially if you are making millions on God's name.
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It's the whole "laborer is worthy of his hire" thing that the Bible talks about. Honest pay for honest (very hard at times) work. I've worked in the mainstream and in ministry and as I'm sure you know, those of us in ministry don't do it for the money!
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I'm sick and tired of people trying to *fix* the problem from within the construct of the broken system. Perhaps Christian is more accurate in his supposition that it's not broken just wrong, but I for one am done trying to work within a flawed and broken system. It's vanity.
"We as Christ followers are called to be a part of the church, both universal and local." No. We as Christ followers ARE the church.
"We are called to give of ourselves, our money/time/gifts." No. This is a doctrinal teaching put forth by the institution of church. Show me a Scripture - we can discuss further.
Christ is using the local church to reach the world. Therefore, yes pastors should be paid." No. Christ is using His people (the collective known as the church) to reach the world. Pastors have been elevated to a status (at least in western churches) far beyond what was spelled out in Scripture.
I still think Ric said it best, we should be supporting ministries. Many churches are not really ministries.
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Buddy, Regarding a couple of your thoughts. I see all of those as issues, but not the issues. I know of some that have fallen along the lines you've painted, but I hardly think it is a majority. I do think there are issues within the church and it's governmental structure, but it is a few where that governmental structure affects the truth.
Now, I have to say this from where I am sitting. I have been a part of the Baptist church all my life and I saw lot of politics, but I never saw God's truth watered down. I have now been a part of non-denominational churches for over 10 years and I have seen none of what you are talking to. I think that in many churches, my experience would be similar.
And to Bad and Buddy and C, I am not sure it's broken, or hopeless. Again, I speak from what I know and am a part of and I watch God work through and in people everyday. I'm watching the church community I am a part of affect the community everyday. I see the leaders of our church (I am one) equipping and encouraging.
I agree, but this would imply that other aspects of how church is being done, are OK. and I think there are many good models. And C, I would agree that we need to stop looking at the original church as "the structure" of what church should look like. I think it's appropriate to evaluate, but silly to think we are them or can be like them.
To me, it is all about intent. God knows the heart and there are so many leaders leading different styles of churches that are doing it to His glory and that is OK for me. Even if I don't agree with the structure or style.
Russ, I think you hit it as well...the environment, or intent.
Bad, you also mentioned something to Tyler, The idea that God may be working on one thing with one and another thing with another. I agree. So, don't you think this could speak to our thoughts on how church institutions handle themselves?
Billy, I think you've hit on something. Scripture says to pay the church leaders. The "institutions" leaders. I think we have to assume that this is a part of that. Then, God will deal with the process of seeing who has been responsible with what He has given.
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I don't ever write a blog post thinking that this is God's message for all my readers to hear. I just writer...I usually don't think about it much more than that.
I still disagree on your thoughts on the church. God is using both the universal and local church to advance His Kingdom. I see little Biblical evidence for your idea that the local church is broken. Just my opinion though. Glad to hear you are doing things to have something that is church different than the typical local church.
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Papa - the church I previously attended had the sr. pastor's compensation at about 50% of the budget.
Tyler - To God's glory, he uses us despite our best efforts to individually or collectively screw the pooch.
Brent - Yes. I'm not telling people to quit their church, or for churches to shut down. Everyone needs to work it out w/God and them individually. I'm describing where I am today, how I got here, and that there are others that think like me.
blessed1/bryan - we don't need to take care of those caring for the needy; WE are commanded to take care of the needy. This is actually a good example of the brokenness of churches - that we've abdicated our own responsibility to the hireling or paid professional.
Read about the seven churches in Revelation and compare your local church to each of them. See any similarities? Any patterns? Does any of it ring true? Chances are the answer is yes.
Another example: ask the average man on the street to define "church" and you're going to get one of two answers: 1) the Sunday morning service, or 2) the building where the service is held. It's broken to call the building the church. It's broken to say we "go to church."
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Guess what? They brought him their crappy, left over, smelly old furniture.
Whatever happened to giving our best? Why would that ring any less true to someone we're following on our walk w/ & to Christ.
How we pay our pastors shows how much our church values them.
It's not a 40 hour a week job...
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I love where I'm at now and our pastors. I love that Jesus is always the message and he can relate to the congregation.
Yes I think they should be paid and live a normal life.
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By the time you factor in mortgage, facility maintenance, office supplies, HVAC, utilities, etc along with the 36%, how much is left for the poor and hungry?
When I was Admin Council at our old church, salaries and benefits were more like 60%. It was a small church with a limited budget and salaries were dictated by the labor union (uh I mean denomination). After the mandatory apportionments to the denomination, utilities, maintenance there was absolutely NOTHING left to do the REAL work Christ commanded us.
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You can donate several cases of canned goods and it only costs you maybe $20. If you do like most people and clean out your pantry of the creamed corn and pumpkin pie filling it's basically free. Same thing with blankets, toys and clothes. For the most part it's folks cleaning out their closets.
How about $500 to help a struggling family make rent. Or $1500 to help a homeless guy with a rotten tooth. We have a school in Baltimore we help that exclusively gives education to homeless children. The kids come in off the street for school and after school go back to the street. They need supplies, mortgage payments, teachers salaries, etc. $200 to give a village in Africa a well. $5000 to Heifer to build a sustainable agricultural economy in a village. I mentioned over at totaltransformation's place... a lot of folks would sooner drop $2k on a pet than $500 to help their struggling neighbor pay their electric bill.
I think people like to reserve their 'tithe' for church because they get something out of it. Kind of like paying their gym membership. In return for their check they get good music, a good message, nice carpet, child care, some place for their teens to 'chill', etc, etc... It's kind of self-serving not Kingdom serving.
What the pastor should be saying is they are mortgage free - a point that was pointed out not only to the pastor but also to the exec. board...and still the lie keeps coming from the pulpit (and the standing ovations continue).
Maybe an isolated incident; maybe not. Still it's broken.
badguy's last blog post...What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
1. Do you currently give 10% of your annual gross income to God? (presumably through the local church with which you're affiliated?)
2. Do you know/maintain a relationship with your next door neighbors? (not the casual exchange of greetings - but do you really know them?)
3. Do you know what is your own personal spiritual gift(s) and are you using it/them?
badguy's last blog post...What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
2.Yes. Well, just on the left side. The guy on the right is a jerk. He hates cats.
3.No. Well, yes. But only in the shower.
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CHRISTIAN!!!
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I believe all of us are coming from a place of wanting God's truth to be the priority in all of this. I am sure we could lay verses out for both sides and weight the pros and cons and still find ourselves where we are.
One thing is that we come from perspective and background.
Papa, you mentioned 10%. There is not reference to the tithe of 10% under the new covenant. In fact Paul says to give more. But, it is a great principle to live by.
Buddy, I think you pointed out perspective in your rebuttal to Tam. It's all perspective. I've never known someone to give instead of serve, just cause they can. But, I work mostly with blue collar people, so I see lots of sacrifice. If I was in a wealthier place, I am sure I would see that.
Bad, you keep saying it's broke, but I only hear of references to certain places where their are integrity issues in the leadership. That's not an issue with the institution, it's an issue with the people. And in that sense, I would heavily agree that "people" are broke and need to be fixed.
Institutions don't function properly or improperly because of process. That's the cart before the horse. Institutions don't function properly or improperly because of people who make the process. It doesn't matter what form the "church" institution takes or doesn't take, even if an institution doesn't exist, people will still make improper decisions. Taking an institution away does nothing to change people. It will only direct attention to other forms of life that will test their integrity.
So, we've strayed a bit from "pastor's being paid", to more of a money discussion and that ok. Except that I don't think money should be our focus. The heart and intent should be.
I've watched people spend money left and right and I've watched people not spend a penny. I've seen people in both those camps ministering in amazing ways. I've also seen people in both those camps doing nothing. It comes down to intent for me.
I've been a part of churches all my life. I work in one now. My pay is the least of my concerns or thoughts. I've had very little in ministry and times where I've felt overflowed with blessings. There is constant ebb and flow in life when it comes to finances and needs. there is no difference in ministry. Which makes me a bit sad, cause scripture clearly tells us that church leaders should never have to worry about that ebb and flow.
Money is not the issue for me. Paul implies that we will know if someone is with their ability in money. How do we judge that? I don't believe there is an answer for that. Just like one church has 60% of budget paying a Pastor and another has 30%, no two institutions are the same and I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it gives us any view of how that institution should look, except for leadership and priorities. So it comes down to heart. Who is using their gifts. Who is doing this to give glory to God and His kingdom. Who is serving first.
And to clarify...yes, I think there should be institutions.
badguy's last blog post...What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
I think I should have made the statement, I have no issue with institutions.
Do I have scripture to back it up? This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but I would just reference everything Paul wrote to churches to teach them how to establish leaders, manage resources and control gatherings.
1. establish leaders;
2. manage resources; and
3. control gatherings.
Thanks!
badguy's last blog post...What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
http://www.amazon.com/Study-Guide-Biblical-Elde...
You've said, and I've heard many others say that "form doesn't matter." I question this notion (and anyone can respond to this - it doesn't have to be between you and me). I have been to too many churches that claim to be "doing it right" only to find that sooo many of the foundational elements of the institution have remained intact - yet it's essentially doing church "my way" or the "way I like". The foundational elements of the institutionalized church - especially the western church that most of us function within - are what I'm questioning. You won't find verses to back up the institution as we've come to know it because they don't exist - that is, it's not biblical. A study of church history, world history, European history, colonialism, the rise of the nation state, and so forth is required to put today's institution into its appropriate context.
Short of that, here are some thought provoking [hopefully] questions (for anyone):
When did the corporate gathering become a spectator sport where the 'flock' passively sits and listens to the 'shepherd'?
When did it become the norm to purchase a building for the purpose of fulfilling the corporate gathering? What happened to meeting in people's houses?
When was celebration of the passover reduced to an assembly line distribution of a crouton and a thimble full of grape juice?
When and how did the corporate gathering for worship come to be called "service"?
When did the local church stop caring for the widows and orphans? (biblically - 33% of a churches income should be exclusively devoted to the poor)?
When did the pastor become the paid professional? and when did the congregation decide to check their personal pursuits of a relationship with God for a relationship with the institution?
Why are their people that affirm themselves as "Methodists" or "Baptists" or "Calvinists" or "Pentecostals" rather than simply identifying their allegiance to and relationship with the Christ?
When did it become acceptable to fly the nation's flag within the building we use for corporate gatherings?
When in history did the church decide it was prudent to align itself with the existing form of government rather than "fly under the radar?" When in history has that proven to work out well for anyone?
hey - I don't mean to hijack your blog. I'll repost this over on my blog. we can continue the discussion here, or take it up there.
Again, these questions are for anyone to respond - not just directed at Brent.
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http://b4dguy.wordpress.com/2008/08/02/should-c...
This book I mentioned is one that does speak to the institution and who the leaders of the church should be within that context. I wasn't trying to stray from the original questioning. I also think that we are looking at institution as something different. .
I guess this is confusing me. To have framework is to have institution. Institution takes on many different forms, but the basis of an institution is that there is framework. Am I missing your thoughts here?
Have they claimed to "do it right" or are they just doing it with the giftings and resources they have to do it with. Every church is different in form, because no 2 people are alike. the personality at my church will be very different than the one down the street. I think you know this about me, but I will never claim to be doing it the "right way" only the way I know best with who God's created me to be. I see this same thing in churches and leadership all over the place.
Here are your questions. I will do my best to answer. Love that your provoking this :)
The corporate gathering between believers was never meant to be "sit and listen". There is heavy implication in Paul's teachings that all should encourage and exhort and speak. At our church we have made this a part of all the gatherings we have focused on the believers. We meet in small groups and mid week studies every week and this takes place. Our weekend service however is focused to be more outreach, so it takes on the flavor of "sit and listen". Jesus was one to teach in a "sit and listen" fashion. Sharing application adn parable to lead people to the truth. Our weekends are like this.
I remember hearing once that churches are the worst businesses in the world. Why would you pay so much for something that sits empty 6 days a week. We've made a point of using our facility 7 days a week. Does this justify it? No. But we fell comfortable with the decisions we've made to both provide a place for people as well as head out into the community. I also don't believe that the "in house" thing has anything to do with it. We are called to gather, I'm not concerned where that happens. Money to me is not the issue. To much emphasis is put on money.
Not sure I've ever seem the Lord's Supper as this. Communion for me is a beautiful and special time. Whether it's juice and wafers or bread and wine means nothing to me. the Savior i worship and celebrate is why I partake. And I live by "as often as you gather...remember", so we partake every time we gather.
I don't know, and I really don't like that name. it makes no sense to me.
Not sure they've stopped. Perspective? We are doing it and many I know are as well. Also, it's interesting that widows have to be over 60 and in need to even be cared for. That would count out many of the widows we know here. But we care still. Not sure this is the priority of the institution though. I think it's the priority of the people. We shouldn't rely on the institution to do the ministering. 33% is a great number, but Paul says give it all to whoever is in need. Again, that burden is on the people...leaders included...not the institution.
Paid professional? If pay makes us professional than...in 1 Timothy 5. Again, perspective? I think there are many that rely on the institution but many don't. I say many, cause that's what I see. I don't have a relationship with my institution, I have a relationship with the people in it and the God we serve. That would include anyone that I cross paths with. Whether they attend a weekly service at my local church or not. This is the way i am as well as the other leaders I work with. We are purposeful in leading our church to think and act beyond our walls. Because our walls truly don't even exist.
I agree. Drives me nuts. Sends the message that "we have it right". We have no denominational allegiance or stance at our church.
I think you know my thoughts here, but I don't agree with government and church existing together or for the benefit of the other. I do believe however that who i am in Christ will affect government and politics around me
Yeah. Virtual Christianity, the voyeurs way of seeing God. Except for clergy, many of them are more like performers before an audience. (Present company excepted!)
I remember the Catholic way. When I was a teen ager a bunch of folk got it into their heads that I may have had a 'vocation' for the priesthood. Nuts!
Many years later I understood that I did have a vocation, and so did quite a few of my friends as well as my wife and daughter. But we don't need to become clergy, pastors or ministers to realize this vocation. What a disservice this idea has done, where there are those who 'get it' and are allowed to really do what the gospel says while the majority of people are content with being 'laity'. Part-time Christians with a multitude of exemptions, living in the 'real' world.
So we are always talking about preaching and pastoring and ministries and taking care of the poor through the auspices of the church and the administering of the clergy. Which usually boils down to just writing checks. I think what happens then is that we shortchange ourselves. I believe that one reason that Jesus wants us to handle these things on our own, face to face, is that rather than just ministering to those in need we find ourselves being ministered by them.
Henri Nouwen wrote a great little book about this called "Adam", where he gave up his highly respected teaching and speaking 'ministry' to become what he though would be the spiritual adviser for a community of severely handicapped people. When he arrived he was a bit put off when they made him the 24 hour one-on-one caretaker for a paralyzed and catatonic young man named Adam. Through caring for this man, bathing him, feeding him, sitting with him, he came to sense that Jesus was present in this very weak, dependent person. It was a life changing experience for him. We miss encountering Christ in this way if we only support, but allow others to handle, ministries.
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Story time: an elder in a church I once served found out Mormon's didn't pay their ministers, presidents, teachers or whatever the title is. Half-jokingly, he suggested we should do the same. My response was they also tithe and sit down with someone from the stake each year to make sure they have tithed. Can we do that as well? Never heard another word about it.
One problem "in the church" is that it's made up of people and people are sinners. If EVERY believer TITHED as the beginning point, [the first two bucks in the plate] there would be money enough to pay pastors, support ministries and do the mission of the Church. The GREAT news is that this problem will take care of itself when our Lord returns. Maranatha
Alan
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Alan, I agree that the people is church, so the church will have issues. We have to be able to hold each other accountable though and we need to keep ourselves accountable as well.
Pawel, thanks for joining in. Are you saying that nothing should exist unless God established it? or does that just go for the church?
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The last church I attended claimed to be doing it right (==God's way) because all the churches that the pastor had been part of were doing it wrong. The only thing I see markedly different about this church is that the music is what the pastor likes, and the messages are what the pastor wants to talk about. Other elements are essentially the same (especially the ways they are missing the mark).
Responses as I read your answers to my questions:
"Our weekend service however is focused to be more outreach".
Two terms - loaded with issues. Service and Outreach. I heard an analogy once of the church treating new converts like they were newborn babies - and the church will feed them as long as they show up at the appointed time and place...otherwise, tough luck.
Agreed. There is no justification for owning a building, campus, or whatever. I'm glad your church has at least recognized the need to be better stewards of the physical plant.
The "last supper" was the feast of passover. It's possible that Jesus meant "every time you eat" or "every time you celebrate the passover [remember that I AM the passover lamb]". My point is more that the sharing of a meal (which implies significant time, resources, and planning) has been reduced to a symbolic gesture (unless you're catholic) rather than the more literal interpretation. It's more assembly line/streamlined these days - no matter what form "the elements" take.
The doctrine of the tithe (esp. to be paid to the institution) is really a product of the institution itself. In the Law, the tithe of your agricultural products were to be brought to the temple where everyone ate together (I believe that is the biblical justification for the pot luck supper!). Every third year the tithe (again of your crops) was to be given over to feed the Levits, the aliens, the fatherless, and the widow (that's where I got 33%). I agree, it should be the people doing the tithe - and none of it should go to the institution (or its upkeep).
Although I'm glad to see that your local church doesn't do many of the things I point out, that doesn't answer the question. Your fellowship would be the exception - not the rule - based on my experience. But I'd bet that there are quite a few within your fellowship that are 'coasting' within the system that you've setup. If I'm wrong - what a blessing! What % of participation do you have in all of the ministries of your church based on its membership (if you even count heads at all)? Maybe participation as a ratio of average attendance at outreach and inreach(?) services?
Groups of believers and their impact on the government and politics. There is no biblical precedence for any active participation at all within any form of government offered to us.
I'd still like to hear others' thoughts - this wasn't meant just for Brent...
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Both of these terms can be packed full of issues, but I didn't use these in that way. Our weekend gatherings (which is what we as a staff call them) are different that the other gatherings during the week. They are more "sit and listen". The message and truth hasn't changed, but we recognize that many people will be attending for the first time and many don't have a clue of what they are waling into. Our weekends are plain and simple...different. The rest of our gatherings have been more purposeful to have one on one or discussion oriented teaching. Could we do that on the weekend? Sure, but we like the variety.
Is our weekend gathering outreach? No, but we understand that out of all the gatherings we have, the weekend will be the heaviest with people who don't believe and those who are visiting. So, the thought process is different for us.
The key word you used this time..."thought". That's all I'm really seeking; is that people think rather than just buy into the same old, same old. Be a Berean!!!
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"Berean"
Funny story. When I lived in the LA area, we had a sister baptist church called Berean Baptist. Ummmm. They were anything but Berean. I used to hear people pick on them because of their name. They were the ultra, closed, conservative church in the area.
For those who are asking for a scripture here and a scripture there to outline every detail of our lives and every detail of what the church does, will never find them, and it is a waste of time and a pointless argument to demand such a thing. Sure some scripture is straight up and specific and then there is scripture that is not. Jesus taught in parables many times, I don't see Christians living out the parables, but with each parable is a principle to live by and to function by. When was the last time someone cut out their eye because it caused them to sin? I mean really give me a break!
For those who do not feel the church is doing what it should, well I am sure you are right in many ways. The only perfect person was Jesus and sometimes I think he was foolish to hand over such a huge responsibility to sinful imperfect people, but it is usually the sinful imperfect people that he uses the most and it is usually those who think they have all of the answers and have it down just right that really bothers him (see the Pharisees, particularly in Matthew 23). I am sure there are areas that every church can improve upon, but you know, why do we put so much emphasis on those areas if Jesus is being preached? That would be a reference to Paul in Philippians 1. He said some were preaching Jesus for personal gain, but he was not going to complain, because JESUS was being preached. Are people being saved? Are people being loved on? Is Jesus being lifted up? Maybe not to some people's high and lofty standards, but you know, Jesus didn't say he was going to build his church on their standards, he said he was going to build it himself, and look who he started with, Peter! Of all the cussing sailors around! I am sure some here would have been screaming at Jesus that he was doing it wrong, but look where the church is today, institutionalized or not.
I currently work at a church for a job that is not the church where my family attends. I am in between youth jobs right now, but this church pays their pastor a very nice salary. I saw one sentence around the figure and it said, "so you will have no worldly care..." I think that's the way the money thing should be. Provide for the man of God and the leaders and overseers of the church, if you don't like it start your own church and lead the people for free, I am sure God would appreciate the discount!
Nick's last blog post...Master Pontiac, Buick, GMC and Archie Hixon
Nick, thanks for joining in!
I think there is a thought that if the Bible doesn't say it we shouldn't do it. But I don't agree with that. I think you've spoken well to that as well.
I loved Paul's attitude. He was interested first and foremost to people hearing the message of Christ and knowing Him a part from man's religious rules and ideas. I like that.
An zero worries on the length. Have at it :)
Nick, Hi... You're argument makes sense under the assumption that the role pastors play in the modern church is 'right'. I think the opposite argument is based on the foundational hypothesis that the way we do church and the role that modern pastors take is not the best, most effective, or at least not the only way to do it.
Thinking outside the box leads to the conclusion that perhaps a full time salaried pastor with benefits is not the best way to do church... at least for a growing number of people.
But what if a community decides they have no need for a traditional pastor? What if the community itself takes upon this role?
Currently I am attending a church where every month all aspects of the sevice are designed and built by a team of rotation volunteers. The benefits are that more people become involved, a much more diverse body of thought is experienced and the community actually comes to grow stronger through enhanced participation. (I would imagine this is not too different from Buddy's simple church - correct me if I'm wrong here.)
That being said, we do have paid pastor, although she prefers the title 'enabling minister' - we are to follow Christ, not her ideas of God.
Christian Beyer's last blog post...Have You Heard This One? A Lesbian, a Playboy and a Biker Walk Into a Bible Study….
My stance on the application of scripture being the litmus test for whether we do anything is not based on "if it's not in Scripture don't do it", it's based on the historical evolution of an institutionalized structure that has little biblical basis (at least the biblical basis has been diluted and often lost) for what it has become today. Many people share the concern that what we know today as the institution of church, and its many 'traditions' are held more sacred than actual biblical truth - to the point that they are fatally flawed, broken, wrong.
Nick - your caveat is telling and supports this assertion: "why do we put so much emphasis on those areas if Jesus is being preached?"
that is my point - I've been to too many churches where Jesus is not being preached. Period.
badguy's last blog post...The Purpose Drive Blog
Pity. . .
That would seem to be very worthy of serious consideration, but that's just baed on my opinion after having visited countless 'church' sites where almost everyone on staff is a pastor (Pastor of 'Administration'? - what, 'paper' sheep?). Then there is the annoying (at least to me) complete lack of listing credentials/curriculum vitae, part of the larger issue of the same sites having no stated doctrine, or their doctrine buried three levels deep beneath the 'sans scripture', bland, Peter Druckeresque 'vision/values/what we believe' statements designed for 'seekers' who are by nature uncomfortable with any statement preceded or followed by actual scripture references.
Dan's last blog post...Perspectives of Evangelism - Death and Judgment
And actually I was getting to a larger issue that you either chose to bypass or don't want to discusss. I probably broke a rule or something
in not sticking to the paycheck thing. Noticing other comments in here I don't think I did.
Dan Cartwright's last blog post...Perspectives of Evangelism - Death and Judgment
But I am assuming your concern os over churches that have "Pastor's" that don't either qualify for that position or don't belong in it? and also then, many churches don't clarify what their stance on what a Pastor is?
Maybe you could clarify a bit mor for me.
thanks.
Dan Cartwright's last blog post...Perspectives of Evangelism - Death and Judgment