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I'm just saying that the distinction creates a benchmark that can be helpful at times. Of course...I'm not disagreeing with what you said. Great points Brent. See you bright and early.
Tyler's last blog post...Endorsement
I say let music be sold as music... If God wants to speak through music to a person he will, no matter if it is label Christian or not. For example God has me captivated by Johnny Cash as of late. Most defiantly not CCM.
ckroboth's last blog post...Help me with my next post.
And yet with the crappiest Christian music, I'm not worried that my daughters (age 10 and 15) will be subjected to lyrics and messages such as those in "Your Body Is A Wonderland"...
Kent
In all seriousness, I appreciate your comment. But what's your point. What does your decision to keep your kids from hearing something have to do with this post?
As music is not inherently good or evil (not talking about lyrics here), I listen to what catches my fancy, though I do try to pay attention to message too. I like when my money goes to a good Christian artist instead of Eminem, but the artist, no matter what genre or belief system, must earn the right to ask for my hard earned cash.
If we could possibly lose the labels (yeah, right), I think more of the GOOD "Christian" music would be heard, because it would be heard for it's merit and not pidgeon-holed at the local Family Christian Store.
Old reference, but when the Jesus Freak album came out, before I had the chance to get it, one of my most un-Christian friends came to me RAVING about it. He was a professional singer/guitarist, and he was blown away by the writing, production quality, hooks, whatever. Not too many Christian artists have rocked the secular market that hard since (Jars of Clay got close), but there are new guys that can out there somewhere. I hope they step up soon!
Mark's last blog post...Simon's Cat 'TV Dinner'
Sorry, I should have been more clear. The "Christian" label, while not a 100% guarantee, gives me some reassurance that the music won't contain objectionable themes. Regarding point #1, I think the label is fine because I know the music itself is not "Christian" but that the themes are.
And to point #2, the statement that "Christian" music "lives to a different standard and in turn ends up encouraging low quality products" is specious. I don't think it encourages low quality products in any way. There's just as much crappy secular music (probably more) as non-secular. What is "encouraging" the low quality there? Just go listen to the majority of the bands on the Vans Warped Tour to get an idea...
Kent
Kent Kingery's last blog post...Shaun Groves & Advanced Blogging
See you ina couple months then we can talk and get you all straightened out! lol
1. the presumption that "christian" music does not contain objectionable themes
2. the tendency for many to want to give their money to the christian artist rather than the secular artist
3. music is not inherently good or evil until you add lyrics?
badguy's last blog post...The Purpose Driven Blog
I attended 'Faith Night' at a Frederick Keys baseball game last weekend (farm team for the Orioles). It was cool, some of the team gave their testimony, Bob and Larry were there, and they had this guy and his wife singing 'Christian Music'... OK the guy was all hip GenX looking. Rad T-Shirt, wild trim job on his burns, looked like stripes or something, shaved head, earings the whole deal. It was mostly original music and of course, you could help 'support his ministry' by purchasing CDs or T-shirts in the stadium. During the game my mother asked me if I bought a CD... I almost spewed beer out of my nose I laughed so hard... This music was the corniest, well crappiest stuff I had ever heard. It was like VBS music but he was serious... Like Carman meets Ray Boltz mixed with a touch of the Gaither Brothers all wrapped in a 'Rad' package.
I was embarrassed listening to him.... and watching all the folks standing, clapping and hand-raising along with him...
Not to be a pain, but...
This kind of promotes a bit of laziness and disconnect from the music and your kids. Maybe it's better to know what they 'want' to listen to google the lyrics, listen to it with them and decide together whether it's appropriate or not, or discuss whats inappropriate (if old enough) and look at how God views that topic....
Me - I was given free tickets to the 'Master of Metal' tour tonight. Judas Priest headlining with Heaven and Hell (original Black Sabbath with Dio singing), Motörhead and Testament... I'm taking my 12 year old son. We have awesome seats... we leave in about an hour...
BuddyO's last blog post...A Man on a Bridge
Labels DO NOT promote "ease" of decision in what to buy. They only "claim" a position. and frankly there is a lot of theological crap being sung under the "guise" of "Christian". To me, that is much more damaging to a person's relationship and growth in Christ than hearing about someone's life.
I'm in between sessions at the conference I'm at, so I'll keep checking in a and pipe in later.
Music can be peaceful or aggressive. Rockin' or sedate. It has emotional attributes, and can evoke strong feelings, but I don't believe "all rock music is from the devil" as has been said by many Christians, you know?
I do think that when you add the lyrical message, it can take on a whole other persona. For instance, P.O.D. can be stinkin' aggressive like Rage, but their message is one of hope instead of offing cops, or whatever. This is usually the line I decide to cross (or not) when choosing what I listen to.
It's a subjective thing (per song) I know, but I think my meaning is pretty easy to get.
Mark's last blog post...Simon's Cat 'TV Dinner'
Maybe Bad, you are coming from the angle that music still isn't evil, with or without lyrics. It is the person singing that causes the intent.
yes? no?
Much of their music is focused on bringing to light social injustice in the world and in particular this country. It's about peace, revolution and questioning the status quo, definitely not about killing cops. As a matter of fact, "Killing in the Name of" is a song that decries the racist attitudes of police in the inner city who abuse their power and kill out of hate under the guise of 'the law'.
I like POD too...
I definitely think music can convey emotion and beauty and even God without using words. Ever listen to "Kind of Blue" by Miles?
BuddyO's last blog post...A Man on a Bridge
I have never understood why tagging music as "Christian" automatically means to so many that the "Christian" audience must accept it, even if it's crap - which so much of it is. We so politely tolerate garbage that would NEVER get "mainstream" airplay, even if U2 themselves released it. I think we (in the bubble) feel like rejecting bad music is rejecting the people who share our faith - but overall, it's a huge disservice to an art form that could do so much more for the Kingdom if we would just expect a little more out of the people who are creating it.
I think you have hit it right on here. We are so afraid of people feeling hurt or rejected that we "settle" for mediocrity instead of pushing forward to offer the best that we can in His service.
But he talked about the failure of the modern church to seek excellence and I think it spoke well to this post.
Here are some of his thoughts.
-Christians are not seen as the ones to "go to" for leadership in quality.
-We have spiritualized mediocrity by creating a false payoff between Godliness and excellence.
-Doing is as much about execution as motivation.
-Jesus was intentional in making the connection between love and execution.
-the Christian adjusted scale of mediocrity needs to be destroyed. We need to reset the bar of excellence.
I wonder if we're not attaching too much importance to the label 'Christian'. What I mean is, when it comes to media I've always just viewed at as another category description in the same vein as 'drama' or 'romantic-comedy' for movies or 'alt-rock' or 'blues' for music. Like someone already said, it generally lets you know what you're getting. Is there a better way to describe this category of entertainment or should we just do away with category labels all together i.e. music is just music, movies just movies? While it is somewhat bothersome to have the 'Christian' identity usurped as a media label simply calling it 'religious' music is too broad and doesn't accurately describe the niche.
As far as whether or not the 'Christian' moniker encourages low quality products, that really is a subjective matter of preference and is true of any media genre. Case in point - the current wave of so-called 'comedies' coming out of Hollywood that cater to the lowest common denominator of humor and, in my opinion, don't represent what I think of when I think great comedy. I don't think the audience for Christian music is as built in as the Collide article seems to suggest - it seems to me that there is a broader range of musical styles available in the Christian music market than at any other time which means it is appealing, and therefore getting its message out, to more people than ever before. And, some are doing it pretty well....but, that's just my opinion :-)
Out of curiosity.....several have posted that "so much" of today's Christian music is "crap". Would a couple of you be willing to cite examples of what you feel fits in this category and also cite examples of Christian music/artists that you feel are exceptional?
givemejesus's last blog post...The Joy of Sharing
@amy & Hislifeformine - if some musicians realized their music is crappy, we could very well be assisting them in finding what God really created them to do...they would no longer be striving to be something they are not...by not letting them know, we are hindering that process...JUST A THOUGHT?
jon's last blog post...thankful thursday…
I've had folks tell me that they only buy or listen to music where the lyrics were expressly devoted to worshiping God. Well, what about classical and jazz? No offensive lyrics there - no lyrics at all. Wouldn't that be acceptable? Not unless the artist was a Christian artist who expressly and explicitly used their art to worship God.
Of course, many of the old classical composers looked at their art as being God given and much of their work were examples of worship. Buddy mentioned Miles. Another jazz great, Duke Ellington once said that each of his songs was a personal prayer (although few of his songs were explicitly Christian in nature). But since these artists aren't stamped "Christian" many people will miss out on some of the most beautiful, God given, works ever performed.
But why do we only seem to have this problem with music, television, movies and books? Shouldn't we only buy houses from Christian builders? Eat only in Christian restaurants? Drive cars made by Christian auto companies? See only Christian doctors? Is the work of the artist so exalted above that of other laborers?
I love that.
Christian's last blog post...Stewardess Claims Osteen Gave Her Hemmorhoids While Knocking the Faith Out of Her
If we all stopped pursuing what we thought we were supposed to be doing or wanted to do and really sought the Lord and good counsel can you imagine how all we as parts of the body would work together?
Now, when it comes to artists that are good or "crappy". My main focus when i say crappy is in true quality. there is good and crappy in all facets of music. again it is subjective, but I think that music and other art still show their true colors and I am able to listen to something and determine what level of quality it has. I don't have specific artists in mind, but things that create quality to me are songwriting/lyrics, musicianship, production, engineering and the ability to do all this live. Too often we think Christian music is good, because the lyrics affect us emotionally. This is not a gauge for quality art. It is only an outcome of experience. Like Buddy said, we are too quickly appreciating music because it has godly lyrics. I have no problem appreciating it for intent, but if it is bad music...it's bad music.
@Hislifeformine,
this is Biblical. Scripture says to be honest in who we are. not to lie or fake our ability. Some are created for music and some are not. because you do it to his glory, doesn't make it good music, it makes it worship.
Your point about buying goods and services from only Christians is good too. Why sequester ourselves from the rest of the world?
(Plus, sometimes I get worried when I do business with other Christians, 'cause I've experienced them getting really flaky - looking for special deals, etc, just 'cause they're a Christian. Come on!)
It shouldn't be that way, but many times it is!
I must say though, I got pretty excited when I found out that my (already) favorite burger joint, In-N-Out, is a company privately owned by a strong Christian family. There's even hidden scripture references on most of their paper wrappers and cups. They have a great reputation as a restaurant, an employer, and they are the cheapest place to eat in town for my family of six. It's good food too!
I hope they inspire many other Christian business persons to be excellent, be fair, and be the best in their field.
Mark's last blog post...Simon's Cat 'TV Dinner'
It reminded me of another Christian owned chain, Chik-fil-a. Not only do they do a nice job but it's a pretty good place to work. My daughter's best friend works at one and they put their money where their Bible is. (That didn't sound right, did it?)
Christian's last blog post...Stewardess Claims Osteen Gave Her Hemmorhoids While Knocking the Faith Out of Her
Christian's last blog post...Stewardess Claims Osteen Gave Her Hemmorhoids While Knocking the Faith Out of Her
OK, back to music :)
great thoughts.
going to read the article now...
carrie-the gremlin wrangler's last blog post...Very Un-Gremlinlike
And movies? Forget about it. I think the best one I've seen was "The End of the Spear". The rest; "Ben Hur", "The Mission", "Chariots of Fire" - were secular studio releases. (Let's not mention "The Ten Commandments", please)
OK, back to music.
Ok, back to music.
Mark's last blog post...Simon's Cat 'TV Dinner'
The radio is still an effective tool to get a song before the public. However with iPods and other music soft-wear(?) we can now create our own "play-list" to listen to. A recommendation in a popular blog will help a song get noticed. I think this may become the primary source for new music in the not to distant future.
A video on You Tube may get more people interested in a song than having it played MTV. Someone posting a link to a song on Twitter can get a song almost as much coverage as it would if played on a radio station.
If we are looking for a song that is appropriate for our children it is better to trust a recommendation from someone we know than a label created as part of some marketing campaign.
Ed's last blog post...How To Stay Healthy
I agree and I don't. I'm still pondering this. I'm quick to say that 'secular' lyrics merely reflect the heart of the artist, but then I'm also quick to judge the pablum that passes for lyrics in many 'christian' songs...so I've got to be fair about this.
Brent - Yes. I was thinking that adding words also doesn't make the music good/evil. But thinking about it more I guess it does go to motive. Still, to call something 'good' or 'evil' when it is simply artistic expression. I think the line I want to draw (and I think many are agreeing) is that much of what is passed for 'christian' music today is hard to call "art" - it is much more marketing-laden fluff that is designed to sell the music and make the record companies lots of money.
We talk about mainstream/secular artists "selling out" - and I think we mean that we perceive that what started as artistic expression ended up being marketing pablum.
So, my work in progress statement is that ART expressed in any medium is neutral - neither good nor evil, but simply a window into the soul of the artist.
Chew on that for a bit - let's see where that takes us...
badguy's last blog post...The Purpose Driven Blog
We have a massive contingency of safe theology in America, that I think the rising generations are tired of and I believe we will be able to shed in the next 50 years. but like pulling of a band aid, it will hurt a bit.
vince's last blog post...What the World is Saying
Of course, all my opinion and include only those who are labeled 'Christian'. It does not include the many great (and crappy) artists who market in the mainstream and are also Christian.
Exceptional:
- Waterdeep
- Delirious
- Phil Keaggy
- Skillet
- Switchfoot
- Derek Webb
- Lincoln Brewster
- Robert Randoloph
- Barlow Girl
- Plumb
Bad:
- Carman
- Ray Boltz
- Whoever that guy is who wrote that song about witnessing on the airplane.
- Maranatha Praise Band
- Bill Itzel (dude I saw at Baseball Game 'Faith Night')
- Petra
- Rich Mullins
- Any of those story songs ala 'Christmas Shoes'
But c'mon- even the 'good' ones; so many of them all keep playing each others same old 4 verse songs - all those hand wavers (I know, that was me once). At least that's what it sounds like on the radio. And in concert, btw.
"Safe Theology" great name. And taking it back to Darby - how sadly true.
Christian's last blog post...Evolving Christians: Is Darwin Really the Enemy of Faith?
Exceptional:
Glenn Kaiser/GKB
Maron
Phil Keaggy
The Lee Boys
Darrell Mansfield
Derek Webb
Third Day
The 77s
The Lost Dogs
Daniel Amos
Mark Heard
Keith Green
Larry Norman
Mylon LeFevre & Broken Heart
Jennifer Knapp
Charlie Peacock
Randy Stonehill
David Crowder Band
Psalters
John Michael Talbot
I'll skip the bad ones for now...
badguy's last blog post...Random Thoughts
enough said....
Mullins is known for that song, cause the church made it "popular". It is an inspirational song, but not a great piece of art. Unfortunately it is held as a standard for Mullins and others. That's where we as Christians have failed in this. We feel good about something and then hold certain things to standards they shouldn't be held to. Rich wrote that song for use in his local church. That's cool. But then to make that a standard for Christian art is a mistake and wrong.
Christian's last blog post...Evolving Christians: Is Darwin Really the Enemy of Faith?
You don't like it anymore?
BuddyO's last blog post...Motörhead Fans are a Bunch of Softies (who knew?)
Gosh, Buddy. I haven't listened to any "Christian" music in so long. I got burned out on it. Occasionally some Bryan Duncan because he sounds 'secular' (you turned me on to him but I know you only like that one album). Now if I want something 'spiritual' I'll go to classical or maybe the soundtrack to the "Mission". (GREAT movie by the way. Just saw it again after 15 years or so.)
Christian's last blog post...Evolving Christians: Is Darwin Really the Enemy of Faith?
Hmm. Coincidence? Or....?
Christian's last blog post...Evolving Christians: Is Darwin Really the Enemy of Faith?
Rich Mullins can't have been all bad - didn't he die on a motorcycle?
badguy's last blog post...Random Thoughts
Keaggy on the other hand is one of the best acoustic guitarists I've ever seen and master of the loop pedal.
Have you ever seen this:
Salvation Army Band
Give yourself time, it's like 9 minutes of acoustic awesomeness...
He is definitely in my 'top 5' of all time guitarists.
badguy's last blog post...Random Thoughts
What ever happened to that 80's Christian hair band Quest? They had some catchy riffs and lyrics.
When I get asked what kind of music we play I usually say lyrically correct.
I like the the term "Christ follower" that CK used earlier because I fear that Christians in general have a lot of recovering to do in order to give that name the credibility it deserves.
Oh, and don't forget Toby Mac's band on the exceptional list :)
Salvador
Ceili Rain
Thousand Foot Krutch
Kerry Livgren/Kansas
Burlap to Cashmere
Big Tent Revival
Newsboys
Caedmons Call
Ricky Scaggs
Ashley Cleveland