brent(inWorship) - Latest Comments in Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:41:38 -0000

D, it's at 7, doors open at 6:30. Yes I'll be there tonight running sound.

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

lazrus2 — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:14:20 -0000

We're going to be at the 'Mannatec' thing at church tonight. Is that what you're doing? If so, what time does it start - we forgot.

I become a pumpkin after 10 PM though (especially getting up at 5 AM and no nap today) ={.

See ya?
D-

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:26:45 -0000

D, we are going to Roscoe's BBQ in Phoenix. Unfortunately I am working at the church for a conference tonight till 9, so we are going to miss dinner. Their BBQ is excellent! But, we will be heading out after the conference to enjoy at least a couple hours of music

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

lazrus2 — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:51:49 -0000

Okay, so where and when is the 'show' tonight =}?

D-

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

badguy — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:46:08 -0000

well...maybe just the first is non-negotiable. There's a new restaurant fixing to open near where I work in Mass. It's called the British Beer Company. Yummy.

badguy's last blog post...Seeking God

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:39:21 -0000

D, I completely agree. I think discussion has headed us to the reality of accountability and boundary.

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

lazrus2 — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:27:38 -0000

I think Deb's comment/cautions in #15 were well followed up on in the last 2 paragraphs of Nor's #41.

Accountability for that 'renewed mind' is crucial to both rightly represent Christ to the world and not 'stumble' weaker Christians who might see us in that environment (especially for 'up front' people like you two).

I have a feeling Nor could attest (as well as many more) of Christians WITHOUT renewed minds doing extreme damage to the world's perceptions of 'Christians'. (I think non-believers can be even more aware of our 'inconsistencies' than fellow believers are at times.)

Nick's brother fell away because of 'believers' who didn't 'walk the talk' (not that he didn't make his own wrong choices too) and 30+ years later still has no interest in 'Christianity' (even with many 'positive' examples within his immediate family).

As to your comment in #18, I agree that God is the giver of good gifts (James 1:17), but Satan sure can have his hand in diverting them to his purposes (to glorify evil or self). Do we not think Satan is 'gifted', and who do we think his gifts originated from (Ezek. 28:11-17)?

It is a delicate balance, and I think Papa's video comment about getting 'filled up' with more of Him IN ORDER TO go out is a needed word for maintaining our 'balance' and not tripping others up also.
It all has to be directed by Him and empowered by His Spirit renewing our minds to communicate His words and actions, motivated by His love for believers and non-believers alike.

D-

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:11:45 -0000

Nor, I really feel that that is what the church is supposed to be. "Equipping the saints". We learn and pray together so that we can go out together and care for the world. Taking someone with you and accountability in all process of life is huge and great wisdom.

Bad, so the first 2 are non-negotiable :)

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

badguy — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:05:09 -0000

What about the three "B"s???

Beer

Brats

Bowling

(I just made that up - feel free to substitute the third B...)

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

TheNorEaster — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:57:12 -0000

Comment #29 took a moment to sink in. I thought she had said, "Oh no, I'm wearing jeans, but they don't see them..."

Just thought I'd throw that in there...

But seriously...I've known a lot of Christians who have had struggles with religious legalism, which appeals to some people because the world at large is so chaotic. A sense of order, of control, oftentimes brings a sense of relief to people. It creates a false sense of meaning and purpose in a world seriously lacking.

This, of course, echos my previous comment somewhere up there. Because there are some pastors and a whole lot of leaders who manipulate our longing for order, for a sense of control when we feel our lives are spinning out of control. For how quickly have people fallen in line behind a bad leader?

The advantage that Brent has, now, as a grown man, is he can expose himself to blues players and bands and go out and have a good time because he has a solid foundation. When you're young and stupid, you think all the dumb things people do in bars and clubs is the way your life is supposed to be at that age.

Nothing wrong with going out and having a few drinks with friends--and I DO mean A FEW, not "a few" for those who think they can "handle" getting "hammered" (believe me, I know how THAT story ends)--but Brent also has an advantage of going out with Tam, who is also a strong Christian, and that probably helps the both of them to stay focused on Who is really important. (Hint: It's not Brent OR Tam. ;) )

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:34:02 -0000

Ash,

"Every person has talents and gifts. They may not say God in them, but that doesn’t mean they are not from God, nor does it mean that the music, art, etc is not beautiful, b/c it is."

I believe this wholeheartedly. Thanks for your thoughts.

Ed,

"Anyone who wants to “spread the word” has got to reach out beyond their own community. It’s also simply a lot more fun to discover new food, new music, new friends."

Right on ed!

Bad, I love the 3 R's!

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

badguy — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:30:17 -0000

ash - I think it's totally cool that you embrace culture and love it. There is SO much for us to learn by listening to each others stories. It doesn't take long to discover that we're all very much the same and have hurt, pain, and disappointment in common. There is joy in discovering how far someone else has progressed on their journey, or how we might help them along in some small way.

I think blogging is a way to have a cross-cultural experience, perhaps from the 'safety' of our own homes - but what the hey.

Ed - you may be right that blogging will help the world come together. I pray that is true. So, I'm not surprised that the people who gravitate to Brent's blog already have a heart to reach out to other people/cultures/unsaved/etc. but unfortunately there are groups within the Christian sub-culture that have built doctrine specifically around being separate, distinct, and effectively cut-off from the world.

How many of us have done "outreach" by inviting folks to come to church, maybe by passing out fliers, or hanging up door-knob-tracts, or leaving Bibles at the doorstep? How many of us seek out "family friendly" forms of entertainment in the media? How many of us have been taught to not listen to certain music, or watch certain films, or go to certain places, or associate with "those types of people"?

Fortunately, I think most of the folks blogging here have come to understand, or are starting to understand that being a Christian involves being intentional in relationship with other human beings.

We must be three things: relevant, relational, and real. Just remember the three "R"s and you'll be walking in His steps.

badguy's last blog post...Seeking God

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

Ed — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:23:41 -0000

I think anyone would feel at least a little apprehensive the first time they experience a culture, or people from a culture, different from the one they live in. I was lucky enough to live close to NY City where if you walk three blocks you can experience three different cultures. I can remember the first time I took the subway line through Harlem, and found myself the only white person on the train. In another early trip to NYC I walked out of Grand Central Station and saw a guy in a dress getting his shoes shined. I think everyone should go through a similar experience because then we learn that people are the same everywhere. Whether they are black or white or a guy wearing a dress. We may talk different, dress different, but people are the same everywhere.

In America it is very hard to isolate ourselves from different cultures, except for the very rich, or some cults. In all the comments preceding comments I have read I don't see anyone who is trying to isolate themselves from the rest of the humanity.

I think the greatest strength of America is that it is a melting pot. I would say in that regard the more we try to isolate ourselves the less American we are, at least in spirit.

Anyone who wants to "spread the word" has got to reach out beyond their own community. It's also simply a lot more fun to discover new food, new music, new friends.

Great topic, great discussion Brent.

Ed's last blog post...Summer Music

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

ash — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:33:47 -0000

Reading through all of this has been really interesting. I would have to say I agree w/ "badguy's" thoughts...

But I'll just go my own direction, here. I LOVE culture. I love people's stories. I firmly believe that every human being has a story- who am I not to listen?? I love going to Irish pub and enjoying a beer over fish n chips...w/ friends talking about life. This is a culture norm, esp common to my heritage, that I enjoy b/c it's gathering w/ people over a part of society and being able to build relationships.

The blues night out? Amazing...

Every person has talents and gifts. They may not say God in them, but that doesn't mean they are not from God, nor does it mean that the music, art, etc is not beautiful, b/c it is. Jesus went to the people, ate, drank and shared w/ them.

Someone said earlier that the Church often misses out on that b/c of Power. I agree. One of the things I love about the Catholic church, for example, is that most of them are still in the middle of neigborhoods and they have a high value for serving the community around them. I don't see as many Evangelical churches doing that...kinda breaks my heart. Non christian people aren't scary. They just don't have Jesus. But what a difference we can make by just being w/ them, hanging out w/ them, giving them ourselves, treating them like people.

ash's last blog post...Brains are Beautiful

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:20:59 -0000

Carrie, I figured that was your thought there.

I think that being relevant like that allows us to listen and understand better.

Where relevant can blur the line is when it tries to conform. Jesus definitely didn't do that. But I don't think you were saying that...just adding more thoughts :)

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

carrie — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:17:34 -0000

here's what I meant by relevant:

bearing upon or connected with the matter in hand; pertinent: a relevant remark. (per dictionary.com)

synonyms include: appropriate, applicable, fitting, and suitable.

I think you knew what I meant, but that's how I use relevant. Behaving toward people in a way that is applicable to where they are in the culture.

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:02:25 -0000

Scott, I was definitely a fan of Norman

Brandy, I am sure Darla will enjoy your story :)

Christian, it was kind of fun Monday to hang out with Joe (the lead guitarist of the group). I've run sound for his band for 2 years now when at the fair and so we've become light friends. At the gig Monday, he would come over and talk to us and at one point bought me a drink for all y help at the fair last week. It was after he bought me the drink that he sat down and we began to talk about what I did. Turns out he is playing with a couple of Christian's in another band(that we are going to go listen to on Friday). he has the utmost respect for these two Christian players. And in turn respects Tammy and I. Over a drink, we got to share our lives with him. We enjoyed all aspects of that.

Carrie, relevant is always such a weird word to me, but if we are to look at it as "relating", Jesus most definitely sought to relate and reach out to others.

Bad, I wasn't supposing as much as trying to define my use of the word. But, I agree with how you've used it and your assessment. The people have created this institution and unfortunately so many just go along with it and in doing so, they become a willing party to it. It is a sad process.

"What most of us need to do is simply walk outside and look around, see someone, and then go and engage them in relationship. No formulas, no 4-step programs, just simply get to know them and care about them."

Yes...yes...yes! Like you said, "engage". We have to engage culture.

Deb, I'll help protect the Jeep :)

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

Debs — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:47:15 -0000

Darla, B and families...this is an official invitation to continue our blowing up traditions next fourth. Darla dear, you can blow up whatever you want if you come back!!!! Er, stay away from the Jeep... :roll:

Debs's last blog post...Can we just love?

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

badguy — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:07:50 -0000

Funny - I spent the last 2.5 hrs on the phone talking to my wife about how fundamentally wrong and broken is the way we do church. Brent - I disagree with your supposition that we're talking about the people; we're really talking about the institution and social structure that most of us believing people claim as our fellowship.

Tyler - "in the world and not of the world" is not actually scripture (God didn't speak it), although I agree with the concept. What did happen was that Jesus prayed that we would NOT be taken out of the world, but that we would be kept safe from the evil one while we are and continue to be IN the world (John 17). That's Jesus talking to God and assuming that we are IN the world - so it's not really a question that needs to be asked.

The Doctrine of separation that I've seen reflected in some folks' posts (mostly about their upbringings from which they are trying to break free) is dead wrong. We must be in the world and among the world.

Our model is Jesus. He was God and was with God and He had whatever goes along with being the Master of the Universe. He gave that up and put on skin so he could reach us. That was a significant step down in terms of his comfort zone, don't you think? We MUST do the same. There's a line from a Derek Webb song that says, "we must become what we want to save."

What most of us need to do is simply walk outside and look around, see someone, and then go and engage them in relationship. No formulas, no 4-step programs, just simply get to know them and care about them. Oh, that takes time btw. After time, and building trust, you'll come to discover what the person's needs are, and you'll get an idea how to meet them. Then one day, in God's perfect timing, a door will open, you'll feel the call of the Holy Spirit to say something, do something, answer a question - who knows?

Pay attention. Look. Listen. Act. Engage. Be.

That's the church in action.

badguy's last blog post...Seeking God

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

carrie — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:38:40 -0000

I think we are scared to some extent. It's a fear that if we participate in the world's culture, we are somehow not Christian enough. But didn't Jesus engage in the culture? Wasn't he relevant to the people around him?

I think so. And I think we would be wise to be relevant to those around us as well.

carrie's last blog post...Wordless Wednesday: Corn King

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

Christian — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:54:06 -0000

It sounds like everyone here really enjoys people, of all types and persuasions. But I've met others who think that the best reason for socializing is to evangelize. But that really isn't honest, is it? To meet people with a hidden agenda.

But....I've had more opportunities to have meaningful conversations about God with people I've met in bars than in many bible studies I've participated in. It's interesting that, if and when the subject finally comes up, if you've had chance to share a beer or two with someone first, their eyes tend to not glaze over quite so quickly.

Christian's last blog post...10 Answers to the Question: Is the Church Still Relevant?

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

Brandy — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:36:44 -0000

"They almost act as if, they are the only one God notices."

SERIOUSLY. That is what I was thinking 100% while there. "Oh no I'm wearing jeans, God doesn't see me according to them." Or, "I listen to Christian rock music, I must be invisible." :roll:

She also saw my myspace pictures of our Christmas party, pictures of us drinking, and she wasn't too impressed by that. I got the same look from her I used to get from my mom when I was a teenager. It was odd.

Darla, you would DIE laughing at this church I'm talking about, it was awful. I'll email you about it later. ;-)

Brandy's last blog post...One of *those* days, and it’s only 11am

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

scott — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:28:29 -0000

We need to be able to identify with what is going on around us in order for anyone to take us seriously.

Besides, Larry Norman said "There's nothin' wrong with playin' these blues licks"

scott's last blog post...The Gore(y) Details

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

darla — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:24:29 -0000

ya!!!! still laughing at the vid...you all are awesome...this was the best vacation ever! hahahaha I still smile thinking about it

darla's last blog post...Christians rant? WHAT!

Re: Church and Culture…Are They Opposed?

inworship — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:21:34 -0000

Darla, just as long as Deb's son makes the bombs :)